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Mayel
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22 Apr 2013, 1:14 pm

Toy_Soldier wrote:
I am guessing the process depends upon what a person falls back on, or looks to, once they reach the state of deep discontent. And in this case, what or who is there, waiting to influence them in a planned direction. I imagine it is among such people the terrorist communities find their suicide bombing recruits. I have read that the sucide bombers are not typically people of deep religious conviction so much as those who have lost all hope.

The older brother seems to fit the model of a person without clear aims or goals and deeply dissatisfied, though it was not apparently due to persecution, poverty or lack of opportunity. The descriptions so far seem to paint a picture also of a man who underwent noticable personnality changes. As an example, during his active stage of boxing, the gym manager described him as the most humble and non-agressive member. But after a few years away from the gym he visited a month or so prior to the bombing and had to be kicked out, due to his showing arrogance and disrespect to the current members and generally being a butthole.

Something else I noted, as others have, is the calm manner they went about this violent business. I do not trully know what that means, but in life I have learned to avoid such types as they seem to have passed beyond humanity.


I've actually read something similar, that it's not the deeply religious who do those things but people who don't really try to understand their religion but who are simply desperate. I've found a lengthy article on their family-relations (here) which states that his mother told him that he should be more religious. It seems as he discovered that boxing wasn't part of it (as of his reading and interpretation or someone else's?), he may have become really disappointed like being a good boxer was his aim all his life and then suddenly it shouldn't be like that anymore to be a good person...or something along those lines. There's probably much more but I feel, that this could be worth considering.
Maybe there was a weak sense of self in both of them, e.g. him changing so fast and drastically and his brother just following his lead.

Sometimes people who are sure to commit suicide become very calm, I don't know if that was it. They also reported the brothers had more explosives and stuff which they assume was for another attack, and considering how the younger brother tweeted "I will die young", that could be it. Or maybe something else, because frankly, this calmness is striking.


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Toy_Soldier
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22 Apr 2013, 2:36 pm

Mayel wrote:
... It seems as he discovered that boxing wasn't part of it (as of his reading and interpretation or someone else's?), he may have become really disappointed like being a good boxer was his aim all his life and then suddenly it shouldn't be like that anymore to be a good person...or something along those lines. There's probably much more but I feel, that this could be worth considering...


I did a quick search & at least in some quarters boxing is not approved of. If he did leave boxing because of its conflict with his beliefs then perhaps, like you say, a main goal path was abruptly cut off.

Something else is that Islamic culture is quite different from American culture. Western European cultures by comparison are fairly close. In the period of youth when the brothers did not actively study Islamic culture they may not have felt so much at odds with Western Culture. In fact both to some degree probably tried to instead learn local ways and fit in. The younger brother certainly did. Delving back into Islamic culture would have brought the differences back into prominence. What is different about these two is that just having Islamic Religion in America does not cause a violent or suicidal actions. Something else was tapped into... and I guess it was politics, for lack of a better word.

Its my opinion, that the religious rarely resort to violence for religious reasons. Nearly always there is something else as the real motivation or prime mover, and it is usually the same reasons as all obvious secular conflicts occur for: power, land and resources.

Boxing & Islam
http://islamqa.info/en/ref/10427



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22 Apr 2013, 11:53 pm

it appears at this point that the feds are going to take the case.
i dont know what clause in the legal system allows them jurisdiction over massachusetts


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Mayel
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23 Apr 2013, 1:20 am

Toy_Soldier wrote:
Something else is that Islamic culture is quite different from American culture. Western European cultures by comparison are fairly close. In the period of youth when the brothers did not actively study Islamic culture they may not have felt so much at odds with Western Culture. In fact both to some degree probably tried to instead learn local ways and fit in. The younger brother certainly did. Delving back into Islamic culture would have brought the differences back into prominence. What is different about these two is that just having Islamic Religion in America does not cause a violent or suicidal actions. Something else was tapped into... and I guess it was politics, for lack of a better word.

Its my opinion, that the religious rarely resort to violence for religious reasons. Nearly always there is something else as the real motivation or prime mover, and it is usually the same reasons as all obvious secular conflicts occur for: power, land and resources.

Of course, it's not only religion as in an ideology that they used to justify their doings. It just recently emerged that the younger brother told the police his older brother wanted to defend Islam and just one day after the bombing the younger brother told a colleague that "tragedies like these happen everyday, look at Afghanistan". Retaliation if you will but they see it as defense. Nonetheless, that's more of a structural and political reasoning behind it.
I do believe that individually it was about feeling wronged, torn apart (may it be culturally and/or through the family) and alienated. Striking their very identities they tried to build for themselves.

I recommend reading this article for such an explanation:
Quote:
For many people, Griffin says, life can be confusing and chaotic. A person can find themselves having trouble relating to others. “I don’t have a single American friend. I don’t understand them,” the elder Tsarnaev told photographer Johannes Hirn in 2010. (The Wall Street Journal‘s account of Tamerlan’s radicalization is also depressingly familiar.) They may feel their country is changing into something they no longer recognize, or have trouble assimilating to a new country in which they’ve immigrated at a young age. And for a very tiny minority, instead of coping, they experience two distinct psychological shifts. Griffin calls it “splitting” and “doubling.”

First, the would-be extremist “splits” the world into a rigid division between good and evil as a bulwark against feelings of — real or perceived — helplessness. Unfortunately, there are any number of ready-made ideologies which can serve to encourage this splitting. Next, the extremist constructs a double life that enables him to design, plan and carry out an attack in a “deadly calm state” characterized by single-minded determination.

Only a tiny few ever make it to this stage, but this “deadly calm” means it’s probably too late. “When you are on a mission with a gun or a bomb, you are not just creating another self, you are acting out a role like in a Rambo movie,” Griffin says. They appear outwardly normal to friends, associates and family members. But inside, the extremist believes himself to be preparing for a heroic mission that entails committing acts of violence that are anything but heroic.


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Biscuitman
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23 Apr 2013, 2:00 am

He has been formally charged now, magistrate came to the hospital as they want no delays. Confirmed that he was able to say the word 'no' when asked about affording a lawyer but that was all he could say.



mfs1013
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23 Apr 2013, 3:29 am

Came across this, not sure if its true or not

http://imgur.com/a/Nx8EU

Idk if anybody mentioned this, but Congress passed CISPA during the same day of the manhunt, which that is true


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DeaconBlues
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23 Apr 2013, 11:42 am

vermontsavant wrote:
it appears at this point that the feds are going to take the case.
i dont know what clause in the legal system allows them jurisdiction over massachusetts

Commission of a federal crime - the use of a weapon of mass destruction. That could, technically, bring the whole thing into Federal jurisdiction, although they'll probably still let Massachusetts and the city of Boston take a crack at him for the three murders and 170 attempted murders (or possibly just charges of assault with a deadly weapon). However, the Feds definitely have legitimate jurisdiction over the federal crime.


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vermontsavant
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24 Apr 2013, 12:41 am

DeaconBlues wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
it appears at this point that the feds are going to take the case.
i dont know what clause in the legal system allows them jurisdiction over massachusetts

Commission of a federal crime - the use of a weapon of mass destruction. That could, technically, bring the whole thing into Federal jurisdiction, although they'll probably still let Massachusetts and the city of Boston take a crack at him for the three murders and 170 attempted murders (or possibly just charges of assault with a deadly weapon). However, the Feds definitely have legitimate jurisdiction over the federal crime.
yea that is a good point.
im not sure what the feds think there acomplishing,he would die faster in general population in walpole(a more painfull death too)
even if they put him in protective custody at the new supermax in shirley,mass.a guard could easily kill him and get away with.what guard would rat on another guard they saw killing this guy,in massachusetts where guards might have known someone killed in the bombing.

i would bet anything this guy would prefere to die by lethal injection in a cushy federal joint where inmates and administration were removed and untouched by this tragedy.

another is thing is "define weapon of mass destruction"not to minimize the tragedy but i always thought weapons of mass destruction meant nuclear or chemical weapons.
im not sure if september 11 would qualify as such.there is a slippery slope here,if a teenager put M80'S in a mail box as a prank,would they charge him with a federal misdomeanor.to think of it the bombs destroyed a place in the state of Mass,that would be a weapon of massachusetts destruction.

i still say put him in general pop in walpole and let the inmates have a fun little torcher toy


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24 Apr 2013, 7:51 am

In the early stages of the investigation a lot of new information comes out & I often have to modify or change my views based on that. As a result sometimes I feel pretty stupid about initial comments I made & wonder if it makes any sense to even comment during the early phase. But I guess it is the same for the investigators themselves and depends on ones interest in the subject. Certain events can affect you deeply and you feel compelled to try and make some sense of it.

Mayel wrote:
Of course, it's not only religion as in an ideology that they used to justify their doings. It just recently emerged that the younger brother told the police his older brother wanted to defend Islam and just one day after the bombing the younger brother told a colleague that "tragedies like these happen everyday, look at Afghanistan". Retaliation if you will but they see it as defense. Nonetheless, that's more of a structural and political reasoning behind it.
I do believe that individually it was about feeling wronged, torn apart (may it be culturally and/or through the family) and alienated. Striking their very identities they tried to build for themselves.


Religion does increasingly seem to be a key element, maybe the main path on which the older brother traveled. In the last days a personnal Mentor has been partially identified, an Armenian covert to Islam, only know as Misha. Referring to what we discussed earlier more confirmation has come out that not only boxing but also music which the older brother began studying at college were abandoned by him specifically for religious reasons. He also discontinued drinking.

That is a large ammount of personnal furniture to remove at once, and under normal circumstances would leave quite a void. As an aside I sometimes think it is better to ween more slowly away from such things then do an abrupt volte face, though it would be difficult to explain why. The only aspect I can mention briefly is that I think it is important to remember what you were like and retain an understanding of those that remain that way, so as not to take on a detached/superior view.

In trying to find the 'why' they did it (bombing), the recent expanation of being angry about the American wars in Iraq & Afganistan does make some sense in that it is a view many have held, and some have been motivated by it to violence. What seems a bit strange is it comes now, after most forces have left Iraq and those in Afganistan are scheduled to leave by the end of next year.

Another possibility, that it was somehow related to the Chechnyan Militant movement has not built up any evidence yet, and seems to make even less sense. There is a lot of focus on the older brothers stay in Russia and spectulation it had some important effect on his decision to turn to violence, but that may or may not turn out to be true. By one accounts he found he did not quite fit in, in Chechnya either.

Something I consider very important in piecing this together is what they find out about the older brother's involvement in an earlier violent episode, an unsolved triple murder that occurred in the Boston area in 2011 I believe. In 2010 the older brother would write he had not a single american friend. I am not sure that was strictly true as he seems to have regularly had girlfriends, but by 2011 it was certainly no longer true as he made a close friend through boxing named Brendan Mess. They were friends perhaps 6 months when Brendan, along with two other men was found murdered in Brendan's apartment (or house). The first story published on this mentioned the loss of his friend as a possible contributing factor. That has changed now to the older brother now being retro investigated by the local police as a possible suspect in the murders.

The murders had at least three unusal circumstances. One was all three had their throats slit. Another is that the victims were found with over $2000 cash still on them. The third was that they were found covered/sprinkled with Marijuana. The older brother was not a suspect in the initail investigation and there currently is zero evidence connecting him to the murders. But their is enough there to have made the police department formally announce they are investigating him as a possible suspect.

Depending on what they find, could shed some new light on the sequence of events, the older brother's movements and motivation of the Boston Bombing.

Quote:
...First, the would-be extremist “splits” the world into a rigid division between good and evil as a bulwark against feelings of — real or perceived — helplessness. Unfortunately, there are any number of ready-made ideologies which can serve to encourage this splitting. Next, the extremist constructs a double life that enables him to design, plan and carry out an attack in a “deadly calm state” characterized by single-minded determination...


That was helpful in plainly explaining a strange phenomenom, and not just in a religious context..

When I was In High School on Long Island I was on the track teams for a few years. We had two very quiet and unassuming kids on the team. One had an serious obsession with being a Firefighter and thats what he eventually did as a profession and rose to be a Captain in the New York City Fire Department. That was Dan Brethel and he was unfortunately killed on 9/11. The other kid started but then dropped out of college and seemed to fall into lawn and yard maintenance as a job. He then became a serial killer and murdered something like 17 prostitutes over a few years before being caught and sentenced to Life Inprisonment. That was Joel Rifkin, and it was noted by the police throughout his arrest, trial and imprisonment how he remained quiet and unassuming.



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26 Apr 2013, 3:07 pm

I'm so bummed out that the younger brother is quite the looker, damnit, I'm not a terrorist, why can't I have his face? :cry:

Shame on his older brother though, the youngin could of had a great life with those sort of looks.



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26 Apr 2013, 4:58 pm

Klowglas wrote:
I'm so bummed out that the younger brother is quite the looker, damnit, I'm not a terrorist, why can't I have his face? :cry:

Shame on his older brother though, the youngin could of had a great life with those sort of looks.


Well, once he gets lethal injection, you can call dips on a face transplant.

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