Shooting at LGBT nightclub in Florida, 20 injured

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gingerpickles
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13 Jun 2016, 7:35 am

0regonGuy wrote:

Dillogic wrote:

Gun laws = won't stop it from happening in these planned cases; Anders and France are your examples. They still happened in countries with more stringent laws.

Gun laws and strict border control mostly worked in Australia. They work in many places , especially small countries, in the rest of the world.

fixed that for ya.
(PS we have gun restriction already concerning legal purchase)

Iceland, Denmark, Austria, Portugal, and New Zealand are the SAFEST countries in the world

Iceland: Restricted firearms. Restricted immigration. 93% homogeneous natural born population(oh and a state church)

Denmark: Restricted Firearms (No military style), Slow immigration until last 30 years, 89% homogenous DANISH ethnic ancestry (and a State Church), Immigration open since shengen (been Eu 30+ years and is having referendum for EoUt)

Austria: Restricted Firearms(No military style), Difficult Immigration (is hotspot in Eu conflict as we post), 88% Homogeneous even with 4 decades of immigration (til recent)& A STATE Church

Portugal: Restricted Firearms (No military style,recent 20% raise in request for license), Resticted immigration until recent and slow,THE MOST HOMOGENEOUS COUNTRY IN EUROPE (88% Catholic but no longer a State Church beginning 1910)

New Zealand: Restricted firearm (you can have military style with proper licensing), restricted immigration less Homogeneous 60% original Eu stock, 14% native maori (no state church or highly dominant religion other than generally christian)

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Jacoby
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13 Jun 2016, 9:35 am

Whining about gun laws is completely disingenuous considering the license and line of work Mateen was in, literally grasping at anything to push their ideology. Maybe 50 people aren't murdered in cold blood in that club if somebody had a gun, maybe the 100 or however many aren't murdered at the Bataclan is these people were allowed to defend themselves. This club banned weapons, patted people down at the door, it was a 'gun-free zone' just as it was in Paris, France.

We have to deal with the ideology of Islamic extremism, it has to be undermined to fight and then killed at the root. Islamic State, the caliphate, cannot be allowed to exist and to give legitimacy to an evil murderous strain of religion and ideology. This is a clash of civilizations, this is a threat that must be met with the same vigor that was met against the Nazis and Soviet in the past. Radical Islam is wrong, it's followers should not be allowed in our countries unimpeded for purposes of jihad obviously but also colonization. People that reject the whole of western values should not expect the sympathy or support of the western nations and people. There is no right to citizenship or immigration to the US, no where in the west should we be expected to take care of those who hate and wish to conquer us. Those that come from the old world should be expected to leave their caveman beliefs behind, if they can't do that then why are they moving in the first place? Nations without soveirgnty and without borders are not nations at all.

Americans and everybody in the west for that matter should not be forced to give up every civil liberty and every bit of privacy we have when the threat of Islamic jihad can be determined simply by profiling as Israel has had much success at. No, not all Americans should need to give up freedoms when their is one demographic that harbors this specific fifth column. There is no reason but political correctness that we can't find solutions to these issues, we can use a scalpel and be much more precise with combating this threat if we accept the fact of who we are at war with and that we stop allowing this political ideology to hide behind this idea that it is a religion. If the Nazis said they were a religious movement, would they be allowed to proceed unimpeded? We should not allow foreign funded mosques and radical imams be able to preach and exist in our countries, Sunni Wahhabism as taught in Saudi madrasas is a direct threat against western civilization, that is the source of almost all the terrorism filth in the world and Saudi Arabia as long as it is allowed to exist will continue to promote this evil worldview.

Tim_Tex
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13 Jun 2016, 10:05 am

We must also remind people that terrorism does not necessarily require a religious or political affiliation.

James Holmes, Adam Lanza, and Elliott Rodgers are/were terrorists as well.

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Jacoby
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13 Jun 2016, 10:13 am

Tim_Tex wrote:

We must also remind people that terrorism does not necessarily require a religious or political affiliation.

James Holmes, Adam Lanza, and Elliott Rodgers are/were terrorists as well.

they were nutjobs

The definition of terrorism is 'the use of violence and intimidation to achieve political aims"

two different things

marshall
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13 Jun 2016, 10:58 am

Jacoby wrote:

marshall wrote:

Honestly, I think you can divide Islamic belief as follows...

1. non-orthodox Muslims (includes liberal Muslims and other smaller sects)
2. orthodox Muslims (identify as Sunni and Shia)
3. "soft" islamists
4. "hard" islamists

Non-orthodox Muslims include many liberal Muslims who don't believe the Koran is infallible and don't believe all Muslims must follow religious rules/laws. They are basically deists who believe in monotheism, pray, and call God "Allah". They are non-sectarian and don't identify as Sunni or Shia. Orthodox Muslims believe following religious rules/laws is obligatory for Muslims, but do not necessarily believe these laws should be enforced by government (sharia). "soft" Islamists believe that in an "ideal" world everyone will eventually be Muslim and people will choose to be governed by sharia law. "hard" Islamists believe sharia should be spread through force (by jihad).

I'd say group 4 is definitely a threat to pluralistic secular society (though not all will decide to become terrorists - in fact many believe killing of non-combatants is unislamic). Group 3 is not a direct threat but still problematic. All Salafi / Wahhabi Muslims belong to group 3 or 4. Groups 1 and 2 are of no threat to secular democracy unless they become 3 or 4. The majority of Muslims in the world are of type 2 or 3, but there is a large population of type 1 in more secular Muslim countries (like Turkey) and in the west. I'd say the majority of Muslims in the west are type 2.

The problem is only type 4, the hardline islamists, are a direct threat. "soft" islamists could become a threat if they become a majority in any nation, but they are nowhere close to this in the US. To ban all Muslims from entering the country goes against the principle of freedom of religion. This is what bothers me about Trump. He hasn't expressed any nuance.

At most, I think any mosques that preach hardline islamism (type 4) should be shut down, or at least closely watched. People who express these views should be on the FBI radar and not be allowed to purchase weapons.

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13 Jun 2016, 11:11 am

This killer visited Saudi Arabia twice in 2011 and 2012, not surprising at all.

There is a clear demographic profile that we should be looking at, we can achieve more with less just by profiling

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13 Jun 2016, 11:24 am

Marteen in high school was jumping up and down in celebration on 9/11

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redrobin62
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13 Jun 2016, 12:34 pm

I'm pissed! Obama had the mother*cking nerve to say that this has nothing to do with ISIS. WTF! ISIS claimed responsibility. That mother*cker pledged allegiance to ISIS. What else needs to be known? Bomb these mother*ckers back to the Stone Age!

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docfox
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13 Jun 2016, 1:13 pm

0regonGuy wrote:

Shrapnel wrote:

Democrats demand that we are not to judge all Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics, but we are encouraged to judge all gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics.

If we agree to kick out all the Muslims out of the country, can we also kick out all the Christians, and all the gun owners? Deal? It would be a way better country.

A small minority of Christians have "Radical" views, 50% of Muslims from the middle east have views we'd classify as "Radical" (No I'm not pulling those numbers out of my ass - See my post on this - countries like Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc have 70-90% views we'd consider "Radical". Afghanistan, where the family of the shooter is from has 90%+ support for Shariah Law, something I'm sure you'd consider radical Islam, but hey let's ban guns right guys?)

Where do you draw the line? The "But Christians do it too!" argument falls flat on its face when maybe .5% of Christians have a view one would consider "Radical." - 50% of Muslims in the middle east and OVER 90% of Muslims from Afghanistan, where our shooters family is from, have view(s) the average person would consider "Radical".

But I'm really curious here; where DO you draw the line? How much of a country needs to be radically incompatible with the western law system (as a follower of Shariah would be) for them to not be allowed to come here?

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Lukeda420
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13 Jun 2016, 1:29 pm

docfox wrote:

0regonGuy wrote:

Shrapnel wrote:

Democrats demand that we are not to judge all Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics, but we are encouraged to judge all gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics.

If we agree to kick out all the Muslims out of the country, can we also kick out all the Christians, and all the gun owners? Deal? It would be a way better country.

I don't think it's that easy to quantify. Nevertheless we should draw the line on any organization that promotes violence.

The ratios of good to bad between these two religions isn't really important. I personally feel we should separate out the violent factions of these groups and view them as entirely different entities.

Even though the KKK refers to themselves as Christian, I won't. They have perverted the core message so badly that they don't even qualify to be Christians. Same with Isis, they may want to think of themselves as Islamic but it doesn't mean we have to agree.

docfox
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13 Jun 2016, 1:30 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:

docfox wrote:

0regonGuy wrote:

Shrapnel wrote:

Democrats demand that we are not to judge all Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics, but we are encouraged to judge all gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics.

If we agree to kick out all the Muslims out of the country, can we also kick out all the Christians, and all the gun owners? Deal? It would be a way better country.

So if 99% of a population (looked up Afghanistan's poll numbers) supports cutting off hands for stealing - this is not a violent and radical view for you? Does this not promote violence?

Or lashing someone for having a intermarital affair? Killing someone for being gay?

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docfox
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13 Jun 2016, 1:38 pm

Here's a good one: 39% of Afghanistani's believe violence against civilians in the defense of Islam is "at least sometimes justified"

Source: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... the-world/

So, again, where do you draw the line between "OMG just radical terror groups!" and stigmas accepted across much of a population?

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Lukeda420
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13 Jun 2016, 1:51 pm

Docfox,

There are different variations of Sharia law so again I don't think it's quite so cut and dry. But as I acknowledged the other day there is a problem in that area of the world. Relatively speaking they are just behind the modern world when it comes to basic human rights. I just don't think the cause is Islam, I just think Islam makes for a good justification.

The only line legally speaking that I can think of is that of promoting violence in the name of their beliefs.

docfox
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13 Jun 2016, 1:53 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:

Nazism itself didin't promote violence, but a majority of Nazi's thought violence was justified in the name of Nazism.

Would you allow Nazi's to emigrate to the U.S then?

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LoveNotHate
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13 Jun 2016, 1:57 pm

I found this interesting ...

"The mandate that homosexuals be killed is not from ISIS or al-Qaeda. It is from sharia — which draws on Muslim scripture."

"Killing Homosexuals Is Not ISIS Law, It Is Muslim Law"
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... muslim-law

docfox
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13 Jun 2016, 1:59 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:

Again worth mentioning the country where the shooter's family is from, Afghanistan, supporters Sharia Law by a 99% majority.

But hey, the problem is guns, right guys?!

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