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Is EVERY scientific organization in the world part of a conspiracy/hoax?
YES! 14%  14%  [ 7 ]
NO! 86%  86%  [ 42 ]
Total votes : 49

wittgenstein
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06 Jan 2015, 3:46 pm

“The Milankovitch cycles are one factor -- a factor that is not well understood. There are a number of open problems involving the Milankovitch cycles. The science is hardly settled.”
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So all the scientists are wrong and you are correct? So we cannot predict and understand the tilt, etc. of the earth? I suppose you will also say that it is not understood why we have a winter and summer (hint, it is because of the tilt of the earth)
So you are saying that the earth is warming but not because of AGW. You cannot be saying that it is because of the Milankovitch cycles because you think (wrongly) that they cannot be understood. Since the Milankovitch cycles are what determines the ice ages, you cannot claim that we are warming because we are coming out of an ice age. *
As my sites show (please give some sites and evidence! Just your opinions vs my facts means that my argument has a foundation and yours does not) according to the Milankovitch cycles we should be getting COOLER.
* That is an absurd claim.
PS; It is not “my” science. It is EVERY scientific organization in the world’s understanding.


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eric76
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06 Jan 2015, 5:07 pm

The funny thing is that you even posted a link to an article that listed some of the existing problems with Milankovitch cycles. Do you even read your own links?



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06 Jan 2015, 5:10 pm

wittgenstein wrote:
Since the Milankovitch cycles are what determines the ice ages, you cannot claim that we are warming because we are coming out of an ice age.


There is a lot of disagreement over what might cause ice ages.

And I do not claim that we are warming because we are coming out of an ice age. What I said was that it is natural to warm coming out of a period known as "the little ice age". That was hardly an ice age. Have you ever heard of "the little ice age" before?

The fact is that we are in an ice age and there is no sign of it ending any time soon. It would be great if it would end. The last thing we should want is to enter another period of glaciation in this ice age.



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06 Jan 2015, 5:14 pm

One possible cause for ice ages that I've seen several times has to do with the movement of the tectonic plates.

This site kind of sums it up from http://geology.utah.gov/surveynotes/gladasked/gladice_ages.htm:

Quote:
One significant trigger in initiating ice ages is the changing positions of Earth’s ever-moving continents, which affect ocean and atmospheric circulation patterns. When plate-tectonic movement causes continents to be arranged such that warm water flow from the equator to the poles is blocked or reduced, ice sheets may arise and set another ice age in motion.

Today’s ice age most likely began when the land bridge between North and South America (Isthmus of Panama) formed and ended the exchange of tropical water between the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, significantly altering ocean currents.

Glacials and interglacials occur in fairly regular repeated cycles. The timing is governed to a large degree by predictable cyclic changes in Earth’s orbit, which affect the amount of sunlight reaching different parts of Earth’s surface. The three orbital variations are: (1) changes in Earth’s orbit around the Sun (eccentricity), (2) shifts in the tilt of Earth’s axis (obliquity), and (3) the wobbling motion of Earth’s axis (precession).
Note that the third paragraph is clearly talking about Milankovitch cycles, but as largely influencing periods of glaciation and interglacial periods within an ice age. They do not themselves cause ice ages.



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07 Jan 2015, 3:41 am

wittgenstein wrote:
"The planet is colder than it has been in several hundred million years..."
inventor
8O :lol: :lol:
So you are saying that the earth is colder now than anytime in the last 300,000,000 years??????


Awell known geologic fact, we are near the lows set 200,000,000 and 300,000,000 years ago, Planet Snowball.



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07 Jan 2015, 4:03 am

wittgenstein wrote:
“The Milankovitch cycles are one factor -- a factor that is not well understood. There are a number of open problems involving the Milankovitch cycles. The science is hardly settled.”
Inventor
So all the scientists are wrong and you are correct? So we cannot predict and understand the tilt, etc. of the earth? I suppose you will also say that it is not understood why we have a winter and summer (hint, it is because of the tilt of the earth)
So you are saying that the earth is warming but not because of AGW. You cannot be saying that it is because of the Milankovitch cycles because you think (wrongly) that they cannot be understood. Since the Milankovitch cycles are what determines the ice ages, you cannot claim that we are warming because we are coming out of an ice age. *
As my sites show (please give some sites and evidence! Just your opinions vs my facts means that my argument has a foundation and yours does not) according to the Milankovitch cycles we should be getting COOLER.
* That is an absurd claim.
PS; It is not “my” science. It is EVERY scientific organization in the world’s understanding.


Again? You credit me with eric76s posts?



eric76
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07 Jan 2015, 4:20 am

Inventor wrote:
wittgenstein wrote:
"The planet is colder than it has been in several hundred million years..."
inventor
8O :lol: :lol:
So you are saying that the earth is colder now than anytime in the last 300,000,000 years??????


Awell known geologic fact, we are near the lows set 200,000,000 and 300,000,000 years ago, Planet Snowball.


If there were ever any snowball Earths (the evidence for them is hardly conclusive), the last would have ended about 650,000,000 years ago.



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07 Jan 2015, 5:29 am

eric76 wrote:
Inventor wrote:
wittgenstein wrote:
"The planet is colder than it has been in several hundred million years..."
inventor
8O :lol: :lol:
So you are saying that the earth is colder now than anytime in the last 300,000,000 years??????


Awell known geologic fact, we are near the lows set 200,000,000 and 300,000,000 years ago, Planet Snowball.


If there were ever any snowball Earths (the evidence for them is hardly conclusive), the last would have ended about 650,000,000 years ago.


I do hype things. Not the cold records, but none of this reached the tropics, so not worldwide.



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07 Jan 2015, 5:47 am

eric76 wrote:
Inventor wrote:
Do something about your reading skills, I am the one who says there is global warming, has been for 15,000 years, and it is a good thing. Before this you credit me with eric's post, I am the other guy.


We're largely in agreement.

I'm not convinced that the global warming we may be seeing is entirely manmade considering that when exiting the "little ice age" we should be warming up and that Global Warming represents the best chance for the future of mankind to be bright. The real disaster would be to cool back down into yet another period of glaciation in the current ice age -- a disaster that would mean starvation and death by starvation on enormous scales all around the world.


Our climate history of the Holocene is iffy. There does seem a cycle, warm periods and city building, followed by cold periods and dark ages. Rome rose in a world warmer than today, and the decline could be climate related, that lead to the Black Sea and the Nile freezing over in 705, and the vikings coming south in 900, as their crops would no longer ripen. 1100 to 1300 was The Little Ice Age, followed by a cool wet period, ergot growing on the grain, The Black Death, and not much happenin gin culture or city building.

On the other side of the world, the same 700 brought extream drought to the Mayans, which spread north and lasted till 1500.

1500 to now has been an unusual mild and consistant climate, which has caused a population bubble.

If like Roman times, we face several hundred years of decline, cooler, less productive, followed by 500 years of really rotten weather.

We are in an ice age and this interglacial could end, and seems over due compared to the last two.

If only we could find a way to warm this place up a few degrees in a hundred years, we might have a better future.



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07 Jan 2015, 11:26 am

Inventor wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Inventor wrote:
Do something about your reading skills, I am the one who says there is global warming, has been for 15,000 years, and it is a good thing. Before this you credit me with eric's post, I am the other guy.


We're largely in agreement.

I'm not convinced that the global warming we may be seeing is entirely manmade considering that when exiting the "little ice age" we should be warming up and that Global Warming represents the best chance for the future of mankind to be bright. The real disaster would be to cool back down into yet another period of glaciation in the current ice age -- a disaster that would mean starvation and death by starvation on enormous scales all around the world.


Our climate history of the Holocene is iffy. There does seem a cycle, warm periods and city building, followed by cold periods and dark ages. Rome rose in a world warmer than today, and the decline could be climate related, that lead to the Black Sea and the Nile freezing over in 705, and the vikings coming south in 900, as their crops would no longer ripen. 1100 to 1300 was The Little Ice Age, followed by a cool wet period, ergot growing on the grain, The Black Death, and not much happenin gin culture or city building.

On the other side of the world, the same 700 brought extream drought to the Mayans, which spread north and lasted till 1500.

1500 to now has been an unusual mild and consistant climate, which has caused a population bubble.

If like Roman times, we face several hundred years of decline, cooler, less productive, followed by 500 years of really rotten weather.

We are in an ice age and this interglacial could end, and seems over due compared to the last two.

If only we could find a way to warm this place up a few degrees in a hundred years, we might have a better future.


Some of those dates are rather suspect. For example, the so-called "Little Ice Age" lasted until the mid 1800s.



wittgenstein
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07 Jan 2015, 12:10 pm

Inventor wrote:
wittgenstein wrote:
"The planet is colder than it has been in several hundred million years..."
inventor
8O :lol: :lol:
So you are saying that the earth is colder now than anytime in the last 300,000,000 years??????


Awell known geologic fact, we are near the lows set 200,000,000 and 300,000,000 years ago, Planet Snowball.

The Triassic was cold??? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triassic *
Your "logic" is like saying, " when the earth was created it was a molten sea of lava. It is now cooler. Therefore there is no global warming." In other words you are comparing apples and oranges.
The world was colder just 2 years ago, it is absurd to claim that the earth is now the coldest it has been for 200,000,000 years.
* I suppose you wrote that wrong. You are a confusing read.But even when translated into rational language, it still does not make sense.
PS; The Triassic was warm because of excess CO2!! !!


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wittgenstein
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07 Jan 2015, 12:30 pm

I really do not understand why you love global warming considering the disasters ( that I gave sites to prove) it caused and will continue to cause.
OK, you claim that global warming will remedy the cooling effect of the Milankovitch cycles. But??? You said there is no way to tell where we are in the Milankovitch cycles.


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wittgenstein
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07 Jan 2015, 12:32 pm

Inventor wrote:
wittgenstein wrote:
“The Milankovitch cycles are one factor -- a factor that is not well understood. There are a number of open problems involving the Milankovitch cycles. The science is hardly settled.”
Inventor
So all the scientists are wrong and you are correct? So we cannot predict and understand the tilt, etc. of the earth? I suppose you will also say that it is not understood why we have a winter and summer (hint, it is because of the tilt of the earth)
So you are saying that the earth is warming but not because of AGW. You cannot be saying that it is because of the Milankovitch cycles because you think (wrongly) that they cannot be understood. Since the Milankovitch cycles are what determines the ice ages, you cannot claim that we are warming because we are coming out of an ice age. *
As my sites show (please give some sites and evidence! Just your opinions vs my facts means that my argument has a foundation and yours does not) according to the Milankovitch cycles we should be getting COOLER.
* That is an absurd claim.
PS; It is not “my” science. It is EVERY scientific organization in the world’s understanding.


Again? You credit me with eric76s posts?

You said that we have no idea where we are in the Malinkovitch cycles. The sites I gave prove otherwise.


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wittgenstein
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07 Jan 2015, 12:36 pm

eric76 wrote:
The funny thing is that you even posted a link to an article that listed some of the existing problems with Milankovitch cycles. Do you even read your own links?

??? here I will explain. The problem with the Milankovitch cycles is that they predict cooling but we are getting warmer. The Milankovitch cycles ARE CONTRIBUTING cooler temperatures, unfortunately they are overwhelmed by AGW.


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wittgenstein
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07 Jan 2015, 12:53 pm

wittgenstein wrote:

PS; The Triassic was warm because of excess CO2!! ! !

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/0 ... a-species/


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wittgenstein
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07 Jan 2015, 12:57 pm

Inventor contradicts himself.
1. If not for AGW we would be getting colder and that is bad.
2. There is no way to tell where we are in the context of cycles.
1 and 2 are false. However, that is not my point in this post. My point is that 1 and 2 contradict each other.


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