Police shooting in Wisconsin,protests erupt

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Brictoria
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30 Aug 2020, 10:15 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
The prosecution doesn't have to actually prove anything.


So where did "innocent until proven guilty" go?

The prosecution team just has to convince a jury of guilt not actually prove it.

That is how innocent people get convicted, and how they can get convictions for entirely circumstantial cases.


Again, 100% incorrect:
The prosecution try to prove their case.
The defence try to show reasons why the evidence\case as described by the prosecution may not be correct\standards for a guilty verdict not met.

The jury decide if, considerning what the defence shows, the prosecution have proven the case to their satisfaction or not. The better the defence lawyer (or information\evidence they can supply), the better the chance for an acquital.

You don't appear to understand the how the real US legal system works.

1. The prosecution case is proven. Rittenhouse confessed.
2. The defense can make a self-defense claim or not.
3. The defense has to prove their claim per Wisconsin law as I posted earlier.
4. A jury , not law, not facts, not truth, are what makes the final decision.

The last time I was a potential juror, I was on a triple murder case by a drug dealer, the defense team eliminated all selected jurors with college education.

Rittenhouse could be facing a jury that is persuaded more by emotion (not logic, facts).


How about:
1: The prosecution case (murder) is NOT proven: He confessed to killing them, but the prosecution still need to prove it was murder, not a "justified" killing (self defence).
2: The defence will present facts to demonstrate it was "self defence"
3: irrelevant, as included in 2.
4: The jury decide if the evidence\explanation, as supplied by the defendant's lawyers demostrates that the killings did not reach the standard required to meet the charges and presented by the prosecution (reasonable doubt).

If it helps you understand what I assume is your own legal system (disappointing that it takes someone in another country to help teach you how it really works, as opposed to how you think it works...):
Quote:
Burden of Proof

In a criminal trial, the burden of proof is on the government. Defendants do not have to prove their innocence. Instead, the government must provide evidence to convince the jury of the defendant’s guilt. The standard of proof in a criminal trial gives the prosecutor a much greater burden than the plaintiff in a civil trial. The defendant must be found guilty “beyond a reasonable doubt,” which means the evidence must be so strong that there is no reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the crime.

Source: https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/types-cases/criminal-cases
State courts in the U.S.A. work in the same way as the federal court, as do criminal courts in a number of other countries, as they are derived from English common law (from memory).



Wolfram87
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30 Aug 2020, 10:16 am

The only legal gun involved here was Rittenhouses'.


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TheRobotLives
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30 Aug 2020, 10:52 am

Brictoria wrote:
1: The prosecution case (murder) is NOT proven: He
confessed to killing them, but the prosecution still need to prove it was murder, not a "justified" killing (self defence).

The prosecutor team makes an affirmative case for their argument.

They don't have to prove it was not 100+ possible legal defense arguments a defense team could potentially make.

If Rittenhouse was too poor, and could not afford a good attorney, perhaps, they would "railroad" him, and convict him on all charges, simply because he could not afford to raise a good defense. This probably happens a lot.


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Wolfram87
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30 Aug 2020, 10:58 am

Pretty horrific compilation, but contains footage of some of the involved parties.


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Brictoria
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30 Aug 2020, 8:07 pm

Apparently, a few details weren't widely reported with regards to Jacob Blake being shot by the police that started the Kenosha riots:
* The knife was one of the type with "brass knuckles" as part of the handle, making disarming him harder (he may have been "holding" it all the time, which was why the police didn't tackle him).
* He had already attacked the officers, having held one in a headlock at some point.
* Tasers had been used against him with no effect.
* He was at the residence of a person despite having a restraining order to prevent this occurring.
* The vehicle he was getting into seems not to have been his.
* There were 3 children in the back of the vehicle (possibly his, but who he did not have custody of).



cyberdad
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31 Aug 2020, 2:02 am

Let's see how much of Rittenhouse's social media history can be recovered after he went home and deleted everything.

One of the things prosecutors will want to know is his connection to a milita called the Kenosha Guards, it was highly suspicious he was seen in company of armed militia possibly linked to this group.



cyberdad
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31 Aug 2020, 2:04 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
provocation? throwing a plastic bag...j


Yes, a "plastic bag". The kind of plastic bag that's on fire, goes "clink" when it hits the ground and starts rolling away. The kind of "plastic bag" that's named after a Soviet foreign minister. That sort of "plastic bag".


Still waiting for my lesson in gun safety.


The Molotov cocktail allegation was a viral rumour started on facebook claiming that Rosenbaum fired a Molotov cocktail at the alleged shooter which has now been debunked.



Wolfram87
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31 Aug 2020, 2:28 am

It's literally in the video. It hits the ground with a clink and starts rolling away. It not breaking doesn't make it not there.


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cyberdad
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31 Aug 2020, 2:31 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
It's literally in the video. It hits the ground with a clink and starts rolling away. It not breaking doesn't make it not there.


I just read that allegation of Molotovs was debunked, but I'll look at the video again.



Wolfram87
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31 Aug 2020, 2:37 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1298530439389487105

Looks pretty flaming for a trashbag.


Quoting myself. Best view I found.


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Brictoria
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31 Aug 2020, 2:39 am

cyberdad wrote:
Let's see how much of Rittenhouse's social media history can be recovered after he went home and deleted everything.

As far as I am aware, your claims recently about his social media feeds being shut down was inaccurate\false, as was you claims that he said he "was going to be a vigilante":
cyberdad wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
I haven't seen that: The only video prior to this that I had seen was when he was being interviewed (by the witness in the charging documents, I believe) where he said he was there as a first-aider (helping rioters as well as defenders, as ambulances were unable to enter that area due to the riots) and to protect people's property, with the gun for his defence - Do you have a link to this elusive video where he said he "was going to be a vigilante".


It's on his social media feed but its been shut down.

Source: https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=389886&p=8597585#p8597585
So, based on that record, I have absolutely no expectation of there being truth in this assertion, either. In fact, working off your established record, it's more likely if nothing is found it will be be becasue it never existed in the first place.

cyberdad wrote:
One of the things prosecutors will want to know is his connection to a milita called the Kenosha Guards, it was highly suspicious he was seen in company of armed militia possibly linked to this group.

It was also highly suspicious that all 3 of the protesters he shot were convicted criminals: Does this therefore also imply all the protestors participating in the protest that night should be considered convicted criminals? Under your logic, it appears they must be.



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31 Aug 2020, 3:04 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1298530439389487105

Looks pretty flaming for a trashbag.


Quoting myself. Best view I found.


Strange this video doesn't play for me?

So I found this one on youtube


It looks like a soda bottle in a shopping bag? so a drink from 7-11 now becomes a potential murder weapon



cyberdad
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31 Aug 2020, 3:12 am

Brictoria wrote:
As far as I am aware, your claims recently about his social media feeds being shut down was inaccurate\false, as was you claims that he said he "was going to be a vigilante":

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... nosha.html

Brictoria wrote:
In fact, working off your established record, it's more likely if nothing is found it will be be becasue it never existed in the first place.

I try and not be personal Bric,...you should make some attempt (although I don't hold my breath). My record so far is
Nick Sandmann - got it wrong
Amy Cooper - Got that one correct
McMichael Brothers - Got that one correct
Derek Chauvin - Got that one correct too

So I'm happy with a 75% success rate (up yours emoji)

Brictoria wrote:
It was also highly suspicious that all 3 of the protesters he shot were convicted criminals: Does this therefore also imply all the protestors participating in the protest that night should be considered convicted criminals? Under your logic, it appears they must be.


As I said before, dead people cant be hauled into trial. You conveniently keep avoiding the fact that Rittenhouse is the one under scrutiny being charged with a double homicide.



Brictoria
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31 Aug 2020, 3:25 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1298530439389487105

Looks pretty flaming for a trashbag.


Quoting myself. Best view I found.


Hard to tell what it was: if it was a "plastic bag", it certainly contained an object of some variety (an empty plastic bag doesn't move that far when thrown, and the dark areas in the object when a light is behind it also indiate the pressence of an item that was not a bag), and was intended to cause injury (why else would he throw it at Kyle, who was running away from him).

It may have been a burning object, or alternatively a plastic bag containing an item such as a brick (or portion thereof).



Brictoria
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31 Aug 2020, 3:36 am

cyberdad wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
As far as I am aware, your claims recently about his social media feeds being shut down was inaccurate\false, as was you claims that he said he "was going to be a vigilante":

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... nosha.html


Yes, the video states he was there as a fist-aider - I don't see any mention of being there as a vigilante.

Similarly, there is no mention of his social media accounts being deleted, as you asserted...

cyberdad wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
In fact, working off your established record, it's more likely if nothing is found it will be be becasue it never existed in the first place.

I try and not be personal Bric,...you should make some attempt (although I don't hold my breath). My record so far is
Nick Sandmann - got it wrong
Amy Cooper - Got that one correct
McMichael Brothers - Got that one correct
Derek Chauvin - Got that one correct too

So I'm happy with a 75% success rate (up yours emoji)

Actually: 0 from 1, unless you happen to have access to the trial results for your 3 "successes" which haven't gone to trial yet... I'd be interested in reading those results, which you must obviously have access to, in order to be able to claim you were "correct".

And that would make it a 0% record, if you don't have those details\trial results, wouldn't it?



TheRobotLives
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31 Aug 2020, 3:38 am

Rosenbaum unarmed.
Rosenbaum never physically touches Rittenhouse.
Rosenbaum is shot and falls down.

Then Rittenhouse pumps three more shots into Rosenbaum, even shooting him in his back.

That seems like clear murder.

Any links I can read of someone explaining how that's not murder?


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