20 shooting victims in California active shooter situation -

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Muslims have been living in America for two hundred years.

They are not dangerous people, any more than everyone against abortion is dangerous.

Some people have been influenced by charismatic 'leaders', some people are unstable, some people are full of hate.

That does not justify the denial of citizens' rights from anyone who has shown no indication of potential threat.

Remember a few months ago, four Muslims, a married couple living in an apartment complex, and their two friends who were visiting them, were gunned down when they answered the doorbell; the visitors had parked in another tenant's assigned parking space, so he killed four people.

Being Muslim did not cause the violence.

Last edited by Sylkat on 05 Dec 2015, 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Some people have been influenced by charismatic 'leaders', some people are unstable, some people are full of hate.

Very true Sylkat as not all people of either a particular ethnic group or religion are all dangerous..

When I said, "Please ... don't let it be Muslims again", it was out of concern for those nice people who just happen to be Muslims. You know, the kind of good neighbors and friends that you would never guess that even had religion unless they told you.

Just as it only takes a few middle-aged white guys shooting up abortion clinics to make all middle-aged white guys look like terrorists, so too does it take just just a few young Muslim men shooting up cafes, theaters, and Christmas parties to make all Muslims look like terrorists.

Be on your guard, yes; but don't lock up every Muslim and middle-aged white guy just because you're afraid of what they might do.

Tashfeen Malik used to be one such "nice, good, modern girl". Syed Rizwan Farooq was a quiet young man who kept a low profile and to himself. Even the FBI had NO suspicions about either of them, even though Rizwan had made "soft but sporadic contacts" with known international terror subjects ! Allegedly, even his mother claims to have not known that her son was up to no good and that DIL had a questionable background in Pakistan :

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-m ... story.html

According to some Pakistani media reports, a photograph has emerged of Tashfeen posing with Lal Masjid's radical cleric Abdul Aziz. Her family also has "extremist connections" and were politically active in their native Punjab.

Yet... somehow.. she passed her background check and got a green card. Her husband also passed his background checks and was employed with the county - a solid government job. She was a housewife who stayed home with a baby. The family lived in a town home in a decent neighbourhood, and were by all accounts, just another American, suburban, middle class family.

So, yeah, those allegedly "nice, quiet neighbours" who don't seem out-of-the-ordinary, and, in fact, blend in so well that even the FBI has no file on them ... ? Good luck with them.

Last edited by HisMom on 05 Dec 2015, 9:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Human beings are no better or worse than each other. Ideology and group think, however, can influence how a person chooses to behave. The issue that everyone is avoiding is how middle class educated and westernised young men (and women) become radicalised?

People have memory problems. From Bin Laden, to the 9-11 terrorists, to the Lockerbie bomber, Tsarnev brothers (Boston bombings), Paris attacks, London bus bombing and now the San Bernadino attacks all involve people who grew up and were educated in the west and many even dating/married to westerners. These are not always desperate poverty stricken individuals who have a "justified" vendetta against the west.

Closer to home the Australian youth caught up in terror attacks on Australian civilians were born here in Australia and there was no distinguishing or unusual characteristics that predisposed them to violence? attempts by psychologists to conveniently classify these people as mentally disturbed does not address what is happening to them.

Looks like we are asking questions that nobody wants to address....

They should track and have a vetting process of every person who come a Muslim country.They also track every Iman in every Mosque in this country. Jihad Watch does a very good job of doing this.

The problem are the people who are willing to die for their beliefs. And how can you measure that?
When it comes down to it, how many people would give up their religion if it meant killing not only a large group of heretics, but themselves as well? How many people are willing to give everything up for their beliefs? And how can you gauge that, how can you test for that and protect against it?

You can test it. You can have a severe vetting process from people from the Middle East. Share information from other intelligence agencies with the vetting process and cross reference it with people who are known radicals. The POTUS should end all new arrivals from the Middle East until the FBI gives them a stamp of approval to enter the country

You're describing, with a few biographical differences, nearly every mass murderer or serial killer in recent history, the majority of whom are born and raised here and display no unusual signs right up until they find that freezer full of dead hookers in the garage. You can't make this argument stick, you just can't, it's only making you look more and more bigoted.

Nope. There are always, always, always signs, but people may just overlook and dismiss them. Normally, that is because most of these mass murderers tend to have anti-social personalities and are loners, who rarely allow anyone to get close to them. Or they might become suddenly estranged from those close to them, and then go "underground", only to be next heard from AFTER they've been on a killing spree. In either case, the obvious signs are missed, not because they are not there, but because people don't look for them or can't seem to realize the significance of those signs until after the fact.

There seem to have been many signs in this case, as well. Multiple media reports have stated that Rizwan seemingly underwent a dramatic transformation in recent times, including growing out his beard, wearing religious clothing, not visiting the mosque he used to previously frequent, falling out with his childhood friend (who is now suspected of being the buyer of the assault weapons that were used in the massacre). The couple had recently begun to get late night deliveries, had been working at odd hours in their garage, and Rizwan was getting into heated arguments with his coworkers over Islam (a change from when he was a quiet, reserved fellow who was always nice to his colleagues and minded his own business). And, people had begun to get suspicious, but they were afraid to report their concerns because they were afraid of being called bigots and racists. So 14 lives were lost. If that's not said, I don't know what is.

AND, secondly, nice try on attempting to make this seem like another "homegrown mass murdering serial killer", even though it is so obviously not. But 'E' for Effort though !

As more information emerges about Tasfeen, it appears that Rizwan was radicalized by his wife, and possibly not the other away around. The woman seems to have had both a personal and a family history of extremism, and Rizwan's personality changes seem to have coincided to the time he appears to have met her. The really bad thing is that it appears that some folks in the government didn't do their jobs well, either, because I want to know how she cleared strict background checks that are required as a condition to becoming a permanent resident ? Especially if she had ANYTHING to do with that nutjob and the Lal Masjid ? It's just mind-boggling that she managed to get into the United States despite such a HUGE red flag fluttering atop the White Flag for everyone and their grandmother to see. Maybe whoever did her background check thought it was bigotted of them to do a check on her "just because she was a Pakistani" and running a check on her seemed like such an awfully racist thing to do ? Who knows what it was ? It doesn't matter now because that oversight cost several people their lives.

But people are still -- even after this horrific act -- wanting to penalize / shame / ostracize those who want to be alert, dutiful citizens ? I really don't get it.

There is *nothing* racist in being alert, watchful and diligent. It is, in fact, a wanton disregard for other peoples' lives and properties if something about a neighbour or a coworker or a random acquaintance or a member of your congregation concerns you, but you do nothing about it because GOD FORBID you get accused of being a racist and a bigot ? Who cares ? Ultimately, who has to live with that guilt that a tragedy could have been averted if I had acted in good faith and with due cause ?

Tashfeen's relative claims that the girl - during her time in Pakistan - regularly spoke on the phone with someone in Arabic, which none of her family in Pakistan understood. She was getting up-close and personal with Abdul Aziz and her actions seem to have become increasingly questionable. WTF was a single, young, religious, burqa-clad, Urdu-speaking girl doing conversing with unknown persons in Arabic and taking photos with questionable elements ? Yet, no one seems to have spoken up.

Rizwan's family, for their part, seem to done even less due diligence, and appear to have accepted their DIL as just a "nice Pakistani girl". Knowing the South Asian matrimonial culture, I would have thought that they would have travelled to the girl's hometown, met her family, and spent time with them before the nuptials. At that point, they would have learned about the girl's family background at least and could have intervened. But, no, that didn't seem to have happened either. The couple "met online", and married far from either one's home town.

Finally, the couple gets up to shenanigans here in the US, and no one reports them here, because people would rather avoid being called names than do the decent thing, even *when* there is clear cause for concern.

So, please, enough already with subscribing to some vague politically correct BS. Have done with such nonsense. I answer to my own conscience and my own motivations -- which are to keep my children, my family, and my community safe. So, yes, you can sit there and call me a bigot until you're blue in the face. Whatever makes the world go around for you, dude.

I worked with a Pakistani man and the marriage process for him was basically his father sent him a satchel with 40 pictures of girls from his hometown. He showed me the pictures and asked me my opinion. He explained that once he settled for a girl his father would pay a bride price and she would be whisked away for marriage. No meeting anyone, the girl was just told what to do. Apparently this is how it is in the middle east.

I don't think you can compare south Asian marriage customs which are based around the girl's family paying a dowry.

The fact is - regardless of who pays a dowry (what do you think a bride price is ?) - the families usually either already know each other (if the father sent the son a bunch of pictures, then I can guarantee you that he must have met each of these girls' families) and they must have met his. It's highly unusual - even when the bride and groom pick each other - for the families to *not* meet ahead of the nuptials and to spend time getting to know each other, and the dozens of relatives in each others' families. It's like two villages getting together, as I sometimes put it.

They may or may not exchange a bride or a groom price, but if Rizwan's family had never met Tashfeen's family (which could have been why they had no clue about her personal or family background), then that's highly unusual.

BTW, Pakistan is not in the Middle East ! It's a good and integral part of South Asia aka the Subcontinent. We didn't even have a separate Pakistan until 1947 -- until then, that area was India ! !

Also, please don't try to make this about your pet peeve, India. This isn't. You win, your arguments are all correct, India stinks, Australia rules, thank you very much. Have a good evening.

Why not do this to every person who comes from a Catholic country, and also track every priest in every church in this country? You can call it Paedo-Watch, or something equally cute.

The San Bernadino couple showed that all immigrants are dangerous!

And Timothy McViegh showed that all native born folks are dangerous!

And Andre Brevik showed that all native born folks who hate immigrants are ESPECIALLY dangerous!

So we need to round up: All immigrants, all native born people who are pro immigrant, all native born folks who are neutral about immigrants, and all native born people who are anti immigrant!

And just leave the remaining folks alone!

Interesting interview with Syed Farook senior about his son and ex wife:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/san-bernar ... th-israel/

If his story is even remotely true, the sister's claim that she had "no idea" is complete rubbish.

In Sunday’s La Stampa (link in Italian) report, Farook said, “My son said that he shared [IS leader Abu Bakr] Al Baghdadi’s ideology and supported the creation of the Islamic State. He was also obsessed with Israel.”

http://www.lastampa.it/2015/12/06/ester ... agina.html