[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.

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kokopelli
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06 Jan 2025, 5:29 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

The current date is January 6, 2025, so it was written a little over 11 months ago.

As I said, they left relevant information out of their article, including acts of terrorism committed by the IDF, and of course, much has happened over the past 11+ months which undermines their overall premise.

You are correct. I read it but was thinking of December 31, 2024. My mistake.

My impression of Israel is that they have definitely acted evil in the past such as admitting the Christian Militia into a couple of refugee camps where they murdered a lot of people and they have some ongoing low level problems. It is clear that they are trying to avoid civilian casualties. Their attacks on HAMAS clearly do not arise to the level of terrorism. For it to be terrorism, they would have to be attacking civilians which they are clearly not doing.

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06 Jan 2025, 5:31 pm

Going by the data we have available, they clearly are attacking civilians, the media, and healthcare workers while engaging in obvious acts of terrorism and war crimes whether one wants to recognize them as such or not. Did you read the article I cited from the UN?

45,000 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza since Oct. 7th compared to 1700 Israelis. Women and children were the primary victims on both sides.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualt ... 3Hamas_war

Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 06 Jan 2025, 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kokopelli
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06 Jan 2025, 5:43 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

They clearly are attacking civilians and are engaging in obvious acts of terrorism whether one wants to recognize it as such or not. Did you read the article I cited from the UN?

Nobody is saying that civilians are not affected. The Israelis cannot fight HAMAS and entirely avoid civilian deaths since HAMAS is operating in civilian areas.

By the way, the article was published just five days after the terrorist attacks on Israeli citizens. In the immediate aftermath of such an attack and of continuing rocket attacks, we cannot legitimately say with any certainty whether it was justified or unjustified.

To try to use something in the first five days to claim that Israel is engaged in genocide is absurd. Israel's actions since then clearly show that they are working hard to avoid civilian casualties.

If the Israelis were providing safe areas to get away to civilians and then killing those who try to use those safe areas, then you might have a point about genocide. But that is not the case.

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06 Jan 2025, 5:47 pm

kokopelli wrote:

You're literally just repeating an Israeli talking point.

kokopelli wrote:

Has HAMAS ever made any effort to avoid civilian casualties? It seems to me that HAMAS is intentionally targeting civilians. That is clearly evidenced by their attack on civilians on October 7, 1923 in which they were raping, torturing, and murdering women and children.

Israel's use of rape and torture on hostages detainees is widely documented.

kokopelli wrote:

Terrorism is the violent targeting of civilians to instill a sense of fear in them in order to achieve their political agenda.

That's a fair description of Israel's actions so far. They consistently engage in the intentional targeting of civilians.

kokopelli wrote:

Israel, on the other hand, is working hard to avoid killing civilians. They are targeting terrorists and only terrorists. They are behaving very differently in this from terrorists.

You can claim this all you like but it conflicts with reality. Israel has a far greater ability to attempt to limit civilian casualties but appears to make little to no effort and instead regularly seems to intentionally target civilians as part of a broader campaign of collective punishment and extermination.

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kokopelli
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06 Jan 2025, 5:48 pm

By the way, the last sentence of the report said:

Quote:

“Parties to the conflict should be doing everything they can to spare civilians from further suffering.”

So tell us what HAMAS is doing to "spare civilians from further suffering". Want to know what they are doing? Not a thing.

TwilightPrincess
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06 Jan 2025, 5:49 pm

kokopelli wrote:

TwilightPrincess wrote:

They clearly are attacking civilians and are engaging in obvious acts of terrorism whether one wants to recognize it as such or not. Did you read the article I cited from the UN?

They cannot fight HAMAS and entirely avoid civilian deaths since HAMAS is using the civilians for cover.

As the evidence has demonstrated time and time again, they aren’t even trying.

kokopelli wrote:

By the way, the article was published just five days after the terrorist attacks on Israeli citizens.

It seems like you must’ve just skimmed it. The article from the UN was published November 8, 2024 which is over a year after October 7, 2023.

They collected data from November 2023 to April 2024 which is what the article is about. I suggest rereading it. Obviously, Israeli tactics haven’t changed since May or April. It was just the timeline for that particular study.

funeralxempire
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06 Jan 2025, 5:56 pm

kokopelli wrote:

If the Israelis were providing safe areas to get away to civilians and then killing those who try to use those safe areas, then you might have a point about genocide. But that is not the case.

Bull-f**king-s**t.

Quote:

“This evacuation is for your own safety,” the Israeli military declared on October 13, when it ordered 1.1 million Palestinians in northern Gaza to leave their homes. Thousands heeded the warning and headed south, only to be bombed along the way and upon arrival.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024 ... f-genocide

Quote:

An NBC News investigation into seven deadly airstrikes has found Palestinians were killed in areas of southern Gaza that the Israeli military had explicitly designated as safe zones.

The attacks took place from January to April, as Israel’s military bombarded Rafah from the air and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government signaled its intent to launch a full-scale ground invasion on Gaza’s southernmost city, which has now swelled to more than 1 million people.

NBC News camera crews filmed the bloody aftermath of the six strikes on Rafah itself and one strike farther north on the Al-Mawasi humanitarian zone, which was also designated safe by Israel.

The crews compiled the GPS coordinates of each strike, all of which hit an area identified by the Israeli military as an evacuation zone in an online interactive map it published on Dec. 1. The map has not been updated since then and the Israel Defense Forces told NBC News in a statement Sunday that it remained accurate.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/pale ... rcna148008

Quote:

Fresh evidence of deadly unlawful attacks in the occupied Gaza Strip, gathered by Amnesty International, demonstrates how Israeli forces continue to flout international humanitarian law, obliterating entire families with total impunity.

The organization carried out an investigation into four Israeli strikes, three in December 2023, after the humanitarian pause ended, and one in January 2024, that killed at least 95 civilians, including 42 children, in Rafah, Gaza’s southernmost governorate at a time when it was supposedly the “safest” area in the strip, but where Israeli forces are currently gearing up for a ground operation. Such an operation will likely have devastating consequences for more than a million people who are crammed within an area of 63 km2 following successive waves of mass displacement.

In all four attacks, the organization did not find any indication that the residential buildings hit could be considered legitimate military objectives or that people in the buildings were military targets, raising concerns that these strikes were direct attacks on civilians and civilian objects and must therefore be investigated as war crimes.

Even if Israeli forces had intended to target legitimate military objectives in the vicinity, these attacks evidently failed to distinguish between military objectives and civilian objects and would therefore be indiscriminate. Indiscriminate attacks that kill and injure civilians are war crimes. The evidence collected by Amnesty International also indicates the Israeli military failed to provide effective, or indeed any, warning – at minimum to anyone living in the locations that were hit – before launching the attacks.

“Entire families were wiped out in Israeli attacks even after they sought refuge in areas promoted as safe and with no prior warning from Israeli authorities. These attacks illustrate an ongoing pattern of Israeli forces brazenly flouting international law, contradicting claims by Israeli authorities that their forces are taking heightened precautions to minimize harm to civilians,” said Erika Guevara-Rosas, Amnesty International’s Senior Director of Research, Advocacy, Policy and Campaigns.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... -genocide/

Quote:

Israeli airstrikes pounded locations across the Gaza Strip on Thursday, including parts of the south that Israel had declared as safe zones, heightening fears among more than 2 million Palestinians trapped in the territory that nowhere was safe.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/as-i ... everywhere

Your support for Israel seems to be based on a deep misunderstanding (or worse, a purposeful disunderstanding) of the reality of the situation and it causes you to make objectively false claims as though they were true.

funeralxempire
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06 Jan 2025, 6:01 pm

kokopelli wrote:

By the way, the last sentence of the report said:

Quote:

“Parties to the conflict should be doing everything they can to spare civilians from further suffering.”

So tell us what HAMAS is doing to "spare civilians from further suffering". Want to know what they are doing? Not a thing.

We agree that Hamas is an organization that engages in war crimes.

Where we disagree is on if the IDF and the Israeli state are any better than a terrorist organization.

And their actions pretty clearly indicate that they don't possess any real moral high ground.

The founders of Israel understood that the Palestinians weren't wrong to respond to unkindly to their homeland being taken out from under them. As long as that grievance remains unaddressed Israel will justifiably face resistance.

kokopelli
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06 Jan 2025, 7:59 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

kokopelli wrote:

By the way, the last sentence of the report said:

Quote:

“Parties to the conflict should be doing everything they can to spare civilians from further suffering.”

So tell us what HAMAS is doing to "spare civilians from further suffering". Want to know what they are doing? Not a thing.

Do you really claim that trying to avoid civilian casualties is not a noticeably higher ground than targeting civilians with torture, rape, and murder?

funeralxempire
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06 Jan 2025, 8:04 pm

kokopelli wrote:

Do you really claim that trying to avoid civilian casualties is not a noticeably higher ground than targeting civilians with torture, rape, and murder?

All things Israel does to civilian detainees. :roll:

Israel does not have moral high ground in this regard.

kokopelli
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06 Jan 2025, 8:25 pm

Note that declaring a safe route to evacuate does not mean that it will always be a safe route to evacuate.

For example, from https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-01-04-24#h_26fe2461fbd1e7481c17ed79b121a0ff:

Quote:

The Israeli military has warned civilians in Gaza not to use Salah Al-Din street, the main north-south route, as it ramps up fighting in central and southern parts of the territory.

Instead, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) told Palestinians to travel via Al-Rasheed street, the coastal road to the west. The IDF also made clear they would not allow people to move from south to north Gaza.

“The humanitarian corridor on Salah Al-Din Street is closed as of today, as its location is being changed to Al-Rasheed Street,” the IDF posted on X on Thursday.

In any military action, things can change rapidly. What is safe one day may not be safe the next day.

The Israelis even warn that that there are bounds on time:

Quote:

“The humanitarian corridor of Al-Rasheed Street… will be open to travel only from the north to the south of the Gaza Strip, be it on foot or by car, starting today, between 09:00 hours and 16:00 hours” local time (commencing 2 a.m ET).

Have they ever said that something was permanently a safe route? I doubt it. If HAMAS and other foes begin to use the safe route for military actions, you can bet that it is no longer safe.

The_Face_of_Boo
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07 Jan 2025, 5:59 am

kokopelli wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

It's a telling admission when a person insists on defining all violence from one side as terrorism, even when it targets legitimate military forces and all violence from the other side as legitimate, even when it's disproportionate, wanton collective punishment of civilians.

How can such opinions be treated as anything but cheerleading for genocidal ghouls?

Israel is trying hard to avoid civilian casualties. More than just about any other country in history. They are trying to stop the terrorists without killing civilians, but some collateral deaths are unavoidable in their situation.

Has HAMAS ever made any effort to avoid civilian casualties? It seems to me that HAMAS is intentionally targeting civilians. That is clearly evidenced by their attack on civilians on October 7, 1923 in which they were raping, torturing, and murdering women and children.

Sure, lots of people will brand what they don't like as terrorism. Terrorism is the violent targeting of civilians to instill a sense of fear in them in order to achieve their political agenda. That describes HAMAS actions. They are clearly terrorists.

Israel, on the other hand, is working hard to avoid killing civilians. They are targeting terrorists and only terrorists. They are behaving very differently in this from terrorists.

You should check what their politicians say in Hebrew, what they say in Hebrew is totally different from what they talk in English to the world.

Also, don't forget that the head of their state is a criminal wanted by the international court.

Some of the founders of Israel were internationaly recognized as terrorist groups, such as the Irgun and Lehi.

kokopelli
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07 Jan 2025, 8:24 am

Israel is not completely pure on this by any means. They certainly have a checkered past. That does not excuse HAMAS for their vile acts of terrorism on October 7, 2023.

If you can excuse HAMAS for their terrorism based on the Israel being mean, then the same argument could be used by many, possibly most, of school shooters because they went on killing sprees when someone was mean to them.

Jut because you have a grievance of some kind does not give you any right to murder people, especially those who had no part in doing whatever it is that you are complaining about. That includes school shooters and that includes HAMAS. Just as school shooters have no right at all to murder their teachers and classmates, HAMAS has no right to target civilians and to murder, torture, and rape women and children.

There are certainly people here who I hope are never on the jury for a school shooter.

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07 Jan 2025, 10:19 am

As has been explained to you many times already, no one here is excusing Hamas. If Hamas is like school shooters, then the IDF would be like law enforcement who’d think an appropriate response would be killing and abusing students - the vast majority of whom weren’t even involved.

The IDF also “has no right to target civilians and to murder, torture, and rape women and children” or anyone else. Saying that the IDF is wrong doesn’t mean people think Hamas is right - false dilemma.

Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 07 Jan 2025, 11:43 am, edited 3 times in total.

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07 Jan 2025, 10:33 am

There is no longer support for a Country engaging in Genocide ...Especially if it has become part of that countries own doctrine ..Such countries cannot be allowed to stand , in the 21 st century , lest that countries practices spread In a supposably civilized world. Justification of Genocidal Is not a pragmatic thing, Spiritually or from a human perspective.
And to be sure the systematic wiping ( descimating) out of any specific race of people is referred to as genocide. :skull:

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kokopelli
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07 Jan 2025, 4:57 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

If there is an active shooter, the police will shoot as necessary to stop them.

One problem with large terrorist groups is that you cannot just go in and arrest them. Any attempt to do so would result in the deaths of many of those send in to arrest them. I know of no other possibility of dealing with them other than to go after them with the military. That is true even moreso considering the rocket attacks against Israel.

And the Israelis are making more attempts to avoid collateral deaths than any other country at war in history. If they were targeting civilians, that would not be the case at all.

Sure, they aren't perfect. Anyone who expects them to be perfect is incredibly naive. It just doesn't work that way. No matter what they do, there are going to be collateral deaths.

Israel has absolutely no choice but to go after HAMAS and stop them. The sooner they stop them, the fewer collateral deaths.

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