What are the odds of this being another William Freund?

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05 Nov 2005, 2:02 am

Its one of the top stories on Yahoo this early morning.

:cry: :(

I haven't been here in several weeks so I missed the postings. I wish there was something I could have done.


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irishmic
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05 Nov 2005, 2:37 am

Some, Sean and DancesWithDeamons, have gone way over the lets be offensive line.

Sean, the fact that he saved taxpayers money by killing himself can not lessen the intensity of the ethical implications of the act. It's sad that he killed himself. Suicide is ethically questionable. Killing others in the process is morally irredeemable. The fact that he saved taxpayers money does not nor can it ever curb the ethical implications of his actions.



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05 Nov 2005, 2:49 am

irishmic wrote:
Some, Sean and DancesWithDeamons, have gone way over the lets be offensive line.


indeed. can we please try for a little sensitivity in this - there are still some very distressed people here.

thank you.

Vivi
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05 Nov 2005, 4:04 am

vetivert wrote:
indeed. can we please try for a little sensitivity in this - there are still some very distressed people here.

thank you.

Vivi
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Okay, but first I need to clear up an accusation against me.

irishmic wrote:
Some, Sean and DancesWithDeamons, have gone way over the lets be offensive line.

Sean, the fact that he saved taxpayers money by killing himself can not lessen the intensity of the ethical implications of the act. It's sad that he killed himself. Suicide is ethically questionable. Killing others in the process is morally irredeemable. The fact that he saved taxpayers money does not nor can it ever curb the ethical implications of his actions.

Nobody disputes it would have been best for him to get help like he was advised to do. However, he didn't and decided to kill two people and tried to kill alot more. However, by turning the gun on himself, he cut through all the legal red tape of a trial and appeals. Because of that, there won't be any dagged out news coverage and periodic stories in the news every few years as his death row appeals drag out. Even if he had faced a judge, it was going to suck for his parents, but this way it lets the healing process start faster.



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05 Nov 2005, 5:33 am

Don't forget, Sean, the cost to taxpayers that may come from helping the survivors of his victim's family.

On sensitivity, it is a given that there will be some of that in response to anyone for any reason here. After all, AS is a social communication disorder, folks.

However, in the case of an at-risk, unstable, needing person, we can create a way for that person to privately get support here and keep the insensitivity at a minimum.

Jerry



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05 Nov 2005, 1:30 pm

My post wasn't intended to be offensive, and apologies are offered if it was taken that way. I was merely attempting to draw a parallel as to how Aspergers would be used in the defense limelight, much as postpartum depression has been in the past.

What I wasn't trying to say was that Will's life wasn't worth anything, so he did us a favor. I am a firm believer that God is the giver of life, and it hurts to see one so senselessly taken away.

Again, if offense was taken pertaining to my post, I apologize and humbly withdraw from this thread.

Jon



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05 Nov 2005, 1:32 pm

thank you for that, jon - it took guts. and please do not feel you have to leave the thread.



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05 Nov 2005, 1:53 pm

On November 6, 2004, my brother Tom was found hanging from a tree at Peidmont Park in downtown Atlanta. At 39, everyone thought that he had everything together. He seemed, outwardly, to be doing fine. Tom, like myself, suffered with AS, yet he seemed to have a better handle on things.

As a family, almost a year later, we're still grappling for answers. While he didn't take anyone else out with him, I can't imagine the loss hurting any more if that were that the case. I am just thankful that AS wasn't the focus or even listed as a contributing factor in his suicide. In the end, it was determined that he suffered from extreme depression.

Inwardly, however, I know it was a contributing factor, and wish to God that nobody else would have to endure what we live with every day. It's a hard life. As people living with AS. we should band together and offer one another our support. When one of us experiences a down day, chances are, there'll be someone else among us who's experiencing a particularly good day.

Anyway, I'll shut-up now.

Jon



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05 Nov 2005, 2:08 pm

DancesWithDemons

I know how it feels I lost a cousin this Year in April 05. Many in the family are still dealing with it. Many still are questioning why. He suffered with major depression even I still myself suffer also with major depression. He might not had AS like I do. But I know he will be missed very much.


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05 Nov 2005, 2:10 pm

What does it mean when someone protests that we turn something like Freunde's suicide to our own ends? There are a lot of people out there who are doing exactly that and they don't see anything wrong with that. Perhaps we don't do it in the accepted ways? The accepted ways don't work and often make things worse. Some of the accepted ways are intended from start to finish to make thing worse.

A reasonable amount of self-analysis might have prevented a lot of these incidents. Saying that I shouldn't analyze such things is much the same as saying that I should not use the bad experiences of others to help me choose my path more wisely, unless of course some petty dictator tells me what to believe about it.

I'm going to grind my axe.



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05 Nov 2005, 2:26 pm

kevv729 wrote:
DancesWithDemons

I know how it feels I lost a cousin this Year in April 05. Many in the family are still dealing with it. Many still are questioning why. He suffered with major depression even I still myself suffer also with major depression. He might not had AS like I do. But I know he will be missed very much.


Condolances offered for the loss of your cousin.

The point I was driving at, which is the same point I mentioned in my first post in this thread, is that we don't know what the next person is going through. Tom was my brother, seemed to have it so together, and the next thing you know, he's commited suicide. And I'm talking about someone who I was close with in 'real life'.

Will Fruend, like so many others here, was just someone else with a screen name, yet he was suffering. And you can bet your bottom dollar that if there's one Will Fruend in our ranks suffering, then there are others among our ranks who are suffering equally, if not greater, than Will was.

The internet is a two-edged sword. It offers us the protection of anonymity, if we so desire, yet affords us a place where we can share our true feelings. And I think that the next time someone comes on here throwing out comments for help, we need to stop playing Billybadass and do something. What, I don't know...... But you'd be surprised at how far something as simple as offering a listening ear will go with someone who's suffering. The time for fingerpointing is over. The time for action is now. How many more Wills is it going to take before we realize this?

Sean, your argument regarding saving taxpayer money just doesn't hold water. You're totally missing the underlying cause, which is the fact that one of US was suffering so badly that he felt he had nowhere else to go, no other alternatives available, so he did what he felt like he had to do, and the consequenses were horrific. I just don't want to see this happen to someone else..

Jon



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05 Nov 2005, 3:21 pm

DancesWith Demons

Thanks, I send My Coldolances for the loss of Your Brother Tom too.

I myself did try to help Will Freund in the best way I could and I think many hear also tried to help him too. You are right on the internet is a two edged sword. But as I said many did try to help him. You right it starts with listening, many may have become Billybadasses but many did try to reach out to him in the end. You are right we need to take action so if possible this does not happen again. You are right again the finger-pointing needs to end too. Just remember this we all are humans and we all make mistakes, in how we deal with Life and even how we show that we care for others, as well there is nothing perfect we can do but just Try. We can give Our support the best way We can though. And again You are right We need to listen so We can give that help too. We can only use Our Life Experiences to Help Others and Only Hope that its Helps Them that needs the Help.


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05 Nov 2005, 5:53 pm

Dances wrote:
It's a hard life. As people living with AS. we should band together and offer one another our support. When one of us experiences a down day, chances are, there'll be someone else among us who's experiencing a particularly good day.


This is a far cry from saying "Will's life wasn't worth anything", and I'm sure that you didn't mean it to be interpreted literally. However, you should be a little more careful in your choice of words. US Aspies have a tendency to see only the literal meaning unless we clearly know the greater context.

It's been a difficult week for some of us.
The fact that Will was suffering from extreme depression and had AS made him feel intensely close to some of us. I certainly needed time to grieve this week. I think others did too. It was a good demonstration that people with Asperger's have theory of mind, and can demonstrate empathy despite what the textbooks say. I would like to think that many of us have grown a lot from the experience. The growth and compassion I have felt makes me upset when I hear flippent answers from our members.

I am sorry about your brother Tom. Losing people we love can create intense suffering that is not easy to resolve.



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05 Nov 2005, 11:51 pm

If they say that Asperger's people "lack empathy" or that schizophrenics (I have been "diagnosed" shizophrenic) "lack empathy", some screw is loose somewhere. I have great empathy. I am so overendowed with empathy that I have to carry it in a wheelbarrow. We lack empathy with what? With people who delight in torturing small helpless animals? What a terrible neural defect! That's what's "wrong" with me? If so, what on Earth do they characterize as empathy? Is it the ability to enjoy joining in games of degradation and violence against other living creatures?



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06 Nov 2005, 5:32 pm

A painful story about William Freund in today's LA Times. (See also Dana Parson's column):



The Cyber World Shut Out O.C. Loner Too
Aliso Viejo teen who couldn't make friends turned to the Internet only to be rebuffed. He killed two neighbors, then took his own life.

By Kimi Yoshino, Times Staff Writer


This is the story of a young man who couldn't make friends.

He was mocked and bullied. He had trouble looking people in the eyes. He struggled to carry on a conversation and thought his parents and his doctor misunderstood him.



He was filled with hurt, and maybe anger too.

For companionship, he turned to the Internet, an anonymous world where he hoped his awkwardness wouldn't show. He searched friendfinder.com and other sites for someone to talk to. But even there, he was belittled and rejected.



Last weekend — his brain awash with depression and despair — he took a shotgun, went to a house in his Orange County neighborhood and killed a man and his daughter. Then he went home and killed himself.

Some who had crossed paths with 19-year-old William Freund wondered what they could have done differently. Former classmate Tiffany Key spoke up on the Internet:

"Think about your interactions with him. Were they positive? Or were you one of those kids that made his life hell? If you did, then please change your life. This is your wake-up call."


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For as long as Key can remember — at least back in middle school — Freund was a social outcast.

When he walked through the halls, people harassed him. Sometimes, mockingly, students would put an arm around him and loudly announce things like, "Hey, everybody, this is William. He's my friend," said Key, who graduated from Aliso Niguel High School with Freund in 2004 and now attends UC Irvine.

If he sneezed or blew his nose in class, people laughed.

He wore a big, bulky jacket and people laughed.

When he walked down the hall, he ignored the students punching and kicking his backpack. Some, Key said, ruthlessly used Freund as the butt of jokes.

"He wouldn't get aggressive. He would never retaliate," she said. "He would just take it, day after day."

Key said she and her friends tried to reach out to Freund, inviting him to participate in group projects. But because so many people were insincere with Freund, "when somebody would try to be genuine, he was so very defensive," she said.

Tolerating such bullying is a common characteristic of someone with Asperger's syndrome, a neurological disorder that authorities said was diagnosed in Freund when he was 16. The disorder, a variant of autism, makes it difficult for people to interact socially. For some, the sickness can be emotionally crippling.

"People with Asperger's syndrome want friends desperately," said Stephen M. Edelson, director of the Oregon-based Center for the Study of Autism. "But they just don't have the social behavior skills."

In Freund's case, it was "almost as if he was afraid to open up," said Tio Lavranos, 19, another former classmate. "Every time I tried to talk to him, he really wouldn't respond too much," he said.

After graduation, Freund worked part time at a computer repair shop in Corona del Mar. He also helped his father at the family-owned print shop.

"He seemed to be out there doing stuff, but he didn't have much of a personal life with friends," said Forrest Fuster, his former employer. "He did a lot of work and no play. All he did personally was play on the computer."

His social skills were so stunted that he sometimes seemed rude. Once when he finished repairing a computer, he didn't say a word but simply attached a note to the keyboard saying, "You're welcome." When he answered the business phone, he greeted callers with a curt, "What do you want?"

Like Lavranos and Key, Fuster tried to befriend him. He invited him to watch movies, play video games or paintball. Freund turned him down, every time. "I reached out," Fuster said, "but he didn't receive anybody."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Instead, Freund passed countless hours alone in his computer-filled bedroom. One high-speed computer he proudly pieced together with parts his parents gave him for graduation.

In a cyber world where anyone can assume any identity, he took on various characters, role-playing in Doom 3 and other online games, Fuster said.

He also pleaded for help. And for a friend.

He looked on websites such as friendfinder.com and agelesslove.com, crafting pitiable pleas for camaraderie.

"I've never really had a friend," Freund wrote in one of his online profiles. "I've never had someone I can share more intimate conversation with, or just have a good time with. I want to experience doing things together with a 'buddy,' even having fun which I never had."

He never had a girlfriend. "I do not have a place of my own but do not consider it a problem as Nobody has ever been over in all my life."

For a while, it seemed his online posts were harmless enough.

He chatted in February about the movie "Napoleon Dynamite" and television shows, mostly reruns of "The Twilight Zone," "The Outer Limits," and other sci-fi programs.

He posted reviews of online businesses. He bought and sold video games and paintball supplies on EBay. He asked questions about guns, such as where in California he could shoot buckshot at a range.

It should have been easier for Freund to fit in on the Internet.

"You don't need as much social skills when you type messages," Edelson said.

But even there — in the last place Freund sought advice and friendship — the security of his online world unraveled in his final two weeks.

He rambled about wanting to commit suicide and the ways he had tried: asphyxia, lethal and inert gases, and hanging. He needed, he said, to "get away from the stress of the world for a bit."

And he hinted at his imminent death, suggesting that he might not make it to Halloween. He wanted to give away his pug on craigslist.org. On Oct. 19, he posted on the Asperger's syndrome website wrongplanet.net: "I think the only thing to do is go admit myself to a hospital…. I feel like I need to kill myself."

In those last two weeks, his messages became frantic; some were almost incomprehensible, filled with typos and run-ons. He sounded crazy — so much so that some people thought he was playing an Internet joke.

In one posting, Freund said his plans were to "Start a Terror Campaign To hurt those that have hurt me, My future ended some time ago."

During a discourse on a firearms forum on somethingawful.com, described by the founder as a Mad magazine for the Internet, he detailed plans to get even with pranksters he said had terrorized his neighborhood and shot up his pumpkin last Halloween. He boasted that he spent about $5,000 preparing for "this Halloween shootout."

The responses were harsh and occasionally cruel. One reply on Oct. 26 asked: "Wait wait, people are shooting pumpkins with BB guns, and you're going to respond with 'a bunch off 9mm rounds heading your way!'? Are you … ret*d?"

Another said: "I can imagine this mongoloid, sitting on his creaky porch, one strap on his overalls, leaping up and running to the defense of his precious 24-ounce pumpkin."

Some told him he was no longer welcome. They asked him to leave and never come back.

"I think the craziest part is it was actually real," said Rich Kyanka, 29, the webmaster of somethingawful.com.

"Obviously if you could go back in time and know this guy is serious and was mentally disturbed, you could do something about it."

But if anybody tried, it came too late for Freund and Vernon Smith, 45, and his daughter Christina Smith, 22, the two neighbors he gunned down.

On Oct. 26, three days before his shooting rampage, Freund's obnoxious comments got him banned from Kyanka's website. The world that Freund had escaped to began slamming the door.



Even online, he was a social failure.

He died knowing it and feared no one would grieve for him. "No friends," Freund wrote, "all enemies."

Former classmate Lavranos wouldn't describe himself as Freund's friend either. He wishes now that he could.

"We're all human beings trying to find our happiness," Lavranos said.

"Here's a guy … who had it really hard and nobody made it any easier for him."





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RobertN
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06 Nov 2005, 6:04 pm

That last report was probably the most upsetting of the lot.

My problems with certain people on this site look small in comparison to what this guy had to put up with on a daily basis. :cry: