Pew: Romney Leads By 4 In Post-Debate Survey

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Kraichgauer
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13 Oct 2012, 11:00 pm

JBlitzen wrote:

Kraich, can a society reach a point where it is so oriented toward taking care of citizens that don't create value, that the citizens who do create value can no longer sustain it?

It's obvious that it's in our best interest to help people get work who can work. But that doesn't include demeaning them. Part of the reason why so many people cling to the safety net is because there is the very real fear that without medical coverage offered by the government, they and their families would be at risk. The answer obviously is that there should be nationalized medicine that will put this fear to risk. On top of that, instead of throwing people out into the cold after years of going without work, there should be guaranteed work for them, with benefits. That's how you spare the productive the burden of supporting the "unproductive."

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

JBlitzen
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13 Oct 2012, 11:30 pm

Guaranteed work with benefits? I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Kraichgauer
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13 Oct 2012, 11:41 pm

JBlitzen wrote:

Guaranteed work with benefits? I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Just what you said. Someone here on WP had said in Sweden, when someone isn't able to find work, they are given jobs like fixing cobblestones on public roads and walkways. That way, everyone pretty much has full employment, and there is a steady tax base. I can't see why such a thing isn't enacted here in the USA.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

JBlitzen
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13 Oct 2012, 11:47 pm

We don't really have cobblestones...

auntblabby
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13 Oct 2012, 11:51 pm

JBlitzen wrote:

We don't really have cobblestones...

you are deliberately ignoring his point, aren't you?

JBlitzen
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13 Oct 2012, 11:55 pm

auntblabby wrote:

JBlitzen wrote:

We don't really have cobblestones...

you are deliberately ignoring his point, aren't you?

No. It's impossible to discuss his point without raising specifics.

Think about this, what if the required work is cotton picking?

Are we returning to the antebellum days when forced labor was used to bring in the crops on the plantation?

I have no idea what Sweden's system is, but I suspect it's not as described. Bricklaying is a skilled trade, it's not something you put an unmotivated and unskilled worker on, even if they're voluntary.

And let's say these involuntary servants are paid. Are they paid above minimum wage? For how many hours a day? Wouldn't that actually cost more than paying them unemployment benefits?

And what job will they be prepared to get as a result? Professional bricklayer? Those would all be out of work, forced out by the slaves they're competing against.

Kraichgauer
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13 Oct 2012, 11:59 pm

JBlitzen wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

JBlitzen wrote:

We don't really have cobblestones...

you are deliberately ignoring his point, aren't you?

I'm going by what one of my fellow Aspies had said was policy in Sweden, and I've never had any reason to doubt him.
And it doesn't have to be cobblestone repair - it could be anything that puts people back to work and being productive citizens.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

JBlitzen
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14 Oct 2012, 12:05 am

I don't see any reference here to the sort of thing you're talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_benefits_in_Sweden

Kraichgauer
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14 Oct 2012, 12:12 am

JBlitzen wrote:

I don't see any reference here to the sort of thing you're talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_benefits_in_Sweden

Well, if I can find the person who had reported on that, I'll pm him and ask him to expand on it.
Regardless, I think it still is a good idea.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

JBlitzen
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14 Oct 2012, 12:14 am

I see no reason to believe that forced labor is the optimal path to economic growth.

Kraichgauer
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14 Oct 2012, 12:26 am

JBlitzen wrote:

I see no reason to believe that forced labor is the optimal path to economic growth.

Wait a minute, who said anything about forced labor?!?! This sort of job would be offered to people otherwise unemployable.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

JBlitzen
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14 Oct 2012, 12:31 am

So you're saying you'll pay me the same whether I take the offered job or not? Why would anyone take it, then?

Kraichgauer
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14 Oct 2012, 1:09 am

JBlitzen wrote:

So you're saying you'll pay me the same whether I take the offered job or not? Why would anyone take it, then?

If my source here on WP is correct, then the chronically unemployed really don't want to be on the dole, but are proven to want to work when a job is offered - despite what the right claims. So, no, it's not a matter of working or not working for the same amount of money.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Vatnos
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14 Oct 2012, 5:42 pm

JBlitzen wrote:

Kraich, can a society reach a point where it is so oriented toward taking care of citizens that don't create value, that the citizens who do create value can no longer sustain it?

I'd say we passed that point a long time ago. Unfortunately, the parasites that are killing our economy are not the unemployed single mothers on welfare as it's often perceived, but the investment class, who make their fortunes from manipulating arcane financial mechanics without contributing a damn thing. It's a bit late to do anything. They have bought our government and brainwashed half the population into believing that giving them even more tax cuts and loosening regulations that restrict their excesses will somehow make life better for the rest of us.

Although these people have a vested interest in not squeezing the rest of the population so hard that they too begin to hurt from it. The parasite needs its host to survive. So it's a game of seeing how far they can push it, how much inequality they can achieve before the system collapses. For the past 30 years, they've slowly turned the temperature up in the pot so the frog doesn't notice it's boiling.

Back in the 60s and 70s, when top marginal tax rates were above 75%, a middle class family could easily send their kids to college and pay their medical bills on one household income. Now two-income households strain to accomplish those tasks and the level of financial security the average American enjoys is noticeably lower. 30 years of trickle down economics will do that.

ruveyn
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15 Oct 2012, 10:44 am

Vatnos wrote:

JBlitzen wrote:

Kraich, can a society reach a point where it is so oriented toward taking care of citizens that don't create value, that the citizens who do create value can no longer sustain it?

Dead on right! The true welfare bums are the Mega corps that live on tax subsidies, bailouts, unjust tax breaks and the rewards of being a Crony. There kind of pseudo capitalism has just about displaced the real thing.

ruveyn

GetBusy
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15 Oct 2012, 2:34 pm

Capitalism relies on greed, it's what drives it. It is a massive confidence trick, when that confidence goes the whole edifice starts wobbling.

It suits us because it suits our nature. It makes me laugh to hear people blaming the bankers and the rich for all the trouble, when the vast majority of people would behave exactly the same in their position.

Those that wouldn't behave that way would never get in that position in the first place, because they are not driven by greed.

The idea that America/UK/Euro-zone can independently control their own economies is just farcical, What is needed is global control and that will never happen, because it's not in our nature.

Democracy means that no government/party is ever going to be elected, if it says it is going to allow how much it spends/ taxes to be set by an outside controlling body.

It's not worth worrying about, either confidence will return or the whole edifice will crumble, long term thats inevitable anyway ( it's just not sustainable long term). I just hope I'm not around to see it.

Either way you and I will have no influence on it. Voting is just a waste of Time.

Be Happy

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