Japanese Whalers ram Sea Shepherd boats

Post Reply New Topic

It really is a matter of perspective. They are considered pirates because they break the law at sea. If international law protected the African slave trade, then people who tried to stop slaving would be pirates.

As for eco-terrorism.... WTF? What is your definition of terrorism? Mine is attacking a civilian population with the intention to force political change through fear. In other words, if Obama sent mail bombs to people who voted republican, in order to make them afraid to vote republican, that would be terrorism. Breaking the law does not make you a terrorist.

So, yes, the Sea Shepards are law breakers. Good. I hope every whaler ends up in a cold watery grave and I hope the the whales eat their fricking bones.

But, I understand that you don't think whales are intelligent -- despite the fact that they talk and all the evidence to show that many whale species are more intelligent than humans. But that is fine. I have long ago accepted that some people are willfully ignorant and will remain so throughout their entire lives. My hope is that we somehow out-breed you and you become a stepping stone on the way to a more evolved humanity.

If you don't believe whales deserve protection, you are right to condemn the Sea Shepards. If you do believe whales deserve protection you are right to attack the whalers. There is nothing to argue about, because their is no logical disagreement, just value disagreement. We should just physically fight about it instead.

Quite right. But these days the laws are against chattel slavery. Until the whales are -legally protected- and whalers are free to hunt them, the Sea Shepherds have a legal obligation not to forcefully interfere.

Force is regulated by Law, not moral sentiment.

It may be that the "better angels of our nature" will ultimately produce kinder laws, but until then Law rules and Sentiment better stay out of the way.

ruveyn

I guess I think of law as an abstract notion, that is usually not worth arguing over. I do agree that the Sea Shepards are breaking international law. But I super don't care. The people killing whales and dolphins are doing something I actually think it wrong. The day the whole world says, "Hey MadMonkey, we think you should be the King of the World. From now on, you make the law." is the day I will care what the law says.

Actually, on second thought, the day I actually felt that we had laws written by and for the people is the day I would care about the law.

That "abstract notion" could put you behind bars or on a gallows. The "abstract notion" comes equipped with guns, clubs, chains and dungeons.

ruveyn

I understand that. I owe it to myself and to those who care about me to stay out of trouble (either legal or otherwise). I treat law similar to a force of nature. I can't keep a lion from eating me, so I avoid lions. I used to live in an area with a lot of Mafia. The threat of violence for getting in their way was very real. I did not get in their way. Their law is no more legitimate than any other.

The laws of the US and everywhere else are real and should be understood by anyone who wants to avoid trouble. But I am not interested in hearing an argument that something is wrong because it is illegal. I will admit to being a moral relativist, but I still think their is room for arguing morals. I would say that within the logical confines of that upon which we agree, we can discuss the moral implications of various situations.

If you thing law abidance is morally right, then that would fall into the area of assumptions we cannot agree on. I see law as nothing more than the will of the powerful. In an ideal world the people would be empowered, but in ours they are not. So I don't care about law, except as something dangerous that I need to be aware of.

The law protects the Japanese murderers of whales. The Sea Shepards are willing to risk the ire of that law to try to protect whales. I don't have any disagreement with someone who says "These guys are breaking the law." I just don't care.

The Japanese Whalers were defending themselves from vessels engaged in acts of piracy. If you're going to protest at least adhere to international maritime law. I hope the Sea Shepherd organisation is shut down and its ringleaders jailed.

They are not protesting. They are engaged in direct action to try to save the lives of beings whom they value over the law. Please explain a reason other than "They are breaking the law" as to why they should stop.

just stop killing whales problem solved.

Harpoon the Sea Shepherds. Problem also solved.

The whalers have a legal right to harvest whales.

It is illegal to interfere with any legal use of the Hight Seas. That is piracy.

ruveyn

Agreed. The whalers should use as much force as they can muster. Once some Sea Shepard ships go down with all hands there will finally be enough international attention given to the slaughter of whales and dolphins. The Sea Sheperds know they are risking their lives, and I admire their willingness to give away their lives for others.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi7KDOAj4Xo[/youtube]

Good point! Seeing the corpses of the Sea Shepherd crew impaled on harpoons will do the anti-whaling cause a world of good.

So breaking the law is ok if you believe in your cause? If everyone followed that approach we'd have anarchy.

That's not even remotely true. If we had no government we'd have anarchy. When you say Ok, are you talking legally or ethically ok? Legally it is not ok to interfere in something that is awful but legal. For instance, the Underground Railroad was illegal. It was not legally Ok to help escaped slaves.

However, morally Ok is a totally different thing. I think whales are people. I think Japanese fishermen are murdering and eating people. So, I think it is morally Ok to take any steps, legal or otherwise, to stop them. Just like I think it is morally Ok to break any law in the service moral goodness.

To flip it over, I am pro-choice. I don't believe an embryo is a real person who deserves protection. But I KNOW that some of you do believe that. I don't begrudge you the illegal actions you might support or take to fight abortion. I get it. I will still fight against you, but I get it. This is a parallel situation.

You think whales are people but embryos aren't? You do realise that sounds utterly insane.

You are dealing in the most shallow, self-serving and hypocritical moral realtivism.

You will blithely see people putting other people in harms way trading off one moral point of view for another. Your failure to begrudge anti-abortionists their illegal actions is a direct and unambiguous expression of support for the people who have murdered physicians who perform abortions. There is no other interpretation possible for your words.

Your morality is worthless. It is hollow and empty.

Fortunately, the law relies on something more objective.