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Kraichgauer
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03 Aug 2014, 11:34 pm

em_tsuj wrote:
Raptor wrote:
em_tsuj wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Where did I say that?


You said that college women shouldn't get drunk. That shifts the blame off of the person who chose to rape the drunk girl. A rapist is a rapist--end of the story. Nothing that a woman does places any responsibility for the rape on the woman. Nobody asks to be rape.


What I said was this \/ and if you'd read it you would have noticed I didnt specify women but everyone.
Raptor wrote:
Getting so plastered as to be vulnerable is generally unwise for anyone and to do so you're knowingly taking on risks in exchange for the joy ride.
It's simple: Don't want to be vulnerable? Moderate the drinking. Period.


I know what you wrote. You still haven't addressed my response. Regardless of what the victim does, the fault is always that of the perpetrator of the crime. That person actively follows through with the steps to commit a crime against the victim.

How would you feel if you reported a break-in at your home and the cop showed up and said, "Why did you move into the neighborhood? You knew it was a bad neighborhood? You set

In Spokane, there was just such a similar situation which was caught on video camera. A couple had called the police about a prostitution problem in their neighborhood, only to be told - very argumentatively - by the cops that they (the home owners) had chosen to live in a high crime area, and so they basically should just suck it up and stop calling the police. And this was a complaint about the commission of a crime, namely prostitution.


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04 Aug 2014, 3:28 am

Raptor wrote:
About getting drunk:
I have to agree with cyberdad on this one. Getting so plastered as to be vulnerable is generally unwise for anyone and to do so you're knowingly taking on risks in exchange for the joy ride.
It's simple: Don't want to be vulnerable? Moderate the drinking. Period.


Dox47 wrote:
If you left your wallet full of money out in public, and someone took it, would it be wrong to say that you were partially responsible for that, rather than that people just shouldn't steal period and thus you have no accountability whatsoever? Ideally, yes, no one should victimize another person, but since we don't live in a utopia, it's wise not to make yourself vulnerable.


Remarkable! on this I'm in agreement with our resident right wingers. Must be time for me to see a counselor :wink: .



Raptor
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04 Aug 2014, 9:28 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
em_tsuj wrote:
Raptor wrote:
em_tsuj wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Where did I say that?


You said that college women shouldn't get drunk. That shifts the blame off of the person who chose to rape the drunk girl. A rapist is a rapist--end of the story. Nothing that a woman does places any responsibility for the rape on the woman. Nobody asks to be rape.


What I said was this \/ and if you'd read it you would have noticed I didnt specify women but everyone.
Raptor wrote:
Getting so plastered as to be vulnerable is generally unwise for anyone and to do so you're knowingly taking on risks in exchange for the joy ride.
It's simple: Don't want to be vulnerable? Moderate the drinking. Period.


I know what you wrote. You still haven't addressed my response. Regardless of what the victim does, the fault is always that of the perpetrator of the crime. That person actively follows through with the steps to commit a crime against the victim.

How would you feel if you reported a break-in at your home and the cop showed up and said, "Why did you move into the neighborhood? You knew it was a bad neighborhood? You set

In Spokane, there was just such a similar situation which was caught on video camera. A couple had called the police about a prostitution problem in their neighborhood, only to be told - very argumentatively - by the cops that they (the home owners) had chosen to live in a high crime area, and so they basically should just suck it up and stop calling the police. And this was a complaint about the commission of a crime, namely prostitution.


Having a little trouble with quotations? :P


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Raptor
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04 Aug 2014, 9:48 am

em_tsuj wrote:
Raptor wrote:
em_tsuj wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Where did I say that?


You said that college women shouldn't get drunk. That shifts the blame off of the person who chose to rape the drunk girl. A rapist is a rapist--end of the story. Nothing that a woman does places any responsibility for the rape on the woman. Nobody asks to be rape.


What I said was this \/ and if you'd read it you would have noticed I didnt specify women but everyone.
Raptor wrote:
Getting so plastered as to be vulnerable is generally unwise for anyone and to do so you're knowingly taking on risks in exchange for the joy ride.
It's simple: Don't want to be vulnerable? Moderate the drinking. Period.


I know what you wrote. You still haven't addressed my response. Regardless of what the victim does, the fault is always that of the perpetrator of the crime. That person actively follows through with the steps to commit a crime against the victim.

How would you feel if you reported a break-in at your home and the cop showed up and said, "Why did you move into the neighborhood? You knew it was a bad neighborhood? You set yourself up to be stolen from. Did you lock the doors? I don't see a burglar alarm in your home. You are an irresponsible homeowner." None of that stuff negates the fact that someone chose to come into your house and take stuff from you.


If I'm home and I get busted into someone's probably going to get shot so I'll have to call the cops to report that.
If I wasn't home and come home to a robbed house I'll only be calling the cops so I"ll have a police report to attach to the insurance claim.
I won't actually expect the cops to do diddly to retrieve my stolen property or catch anyone, I just want an official report in hand then they can be on their way without further ado.
That aside, I still stand behind my assertion that if ANYONE get's too drunk they are more vulnerable than they would be otherwise and have to take part of the blame for whatever befalls upon them while in that state that THEY are responsible for being in. It's not just about rape but anything where sobriety would most likely have resulted in a more controlled and better outcome. I'm not a big believer in common sense clauses but this is one of them.


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04 Aug 2014, 9:56 am

em_tsuj wrote:
Raptor wrote:
em_tsuj wrote:
Raptor wrote:

Quote:
Also, why should untrained people who have a conflict of interest (meaning college administrators) be allowed to take the lead on rape investigations instead of linking rape victims to the proper authorities?
I haven't even addressed that part of it. Grasping at straws are we?


In your post, This post:
Raptor wrote:
/\ Cops usually arent real eager to take a "rape victim" at their word without some serious questioning, especially if their BS warning light comes on. Not all rape claims are legit and I'd be damned if I'd be a party in throwing some innocent guy's life away without first drilling down deep into the victim's story before taking that next step.


you seem to compare the treatment of a rape victim by untrained college staff (who have every incentive to put the college's reputation ahead of victim's well-being) to that of police. There is no comparison. A professional forensics investigator is more likely to handle the situation better because that is exactly what he or she is paid to do. Somebody who works for the college and isn't trained or doesn't get paid to prosecute sex crimes, is likely to mess up the investigation (even if they are well-meaning) because they don't know what they are doing.

You, sir, are the one who is grasping at straws. I endorse using criminal investigators, not college staff, for rape investigations because they know what they are doing, not so they can prosecute an innocent person. Who is more qualified to gather evidence: the rent-a-cop campus police or the real police? Who is less likely to jump to conclusions? Who is more likely to be partial (not standing with the victim or the perpetrator)?

Also, what about this law makes it more likely that innocent people are going to be convicted of rape?


I clearly said COPS and that's what I meant. I said nothing about college staff and I even went back and bolder the word cops for you.
:roll:


Re-read the post that your arrow points to. In that post I said something about college administrators being the wrong people to handle rape cases. You immediately respond by saying something about cops not accepting a victim's claims without thorough questioning. You then go even further to imply that the legislation will result in innocent people getting convicted of rape.
I don't even feel like going back and re-reading whatever I wrote but I do remember having concerns about the innocent being locked up on false accusations because it does happen.

Quote:
You make two incorrect assumptions in your post about cops:
1) I don't want rape victims to be questioned. Otherwise, why would you make a comment that cops don't like to accept rape allegations without questioning the victim?
2) Removing barriers to victims of sexual assault reporting the crime will somehow lead to innocent people being convicted of rape. How does one thing naturally lead to the other?


Depends on the wording and intent of the law. If it fixes what's broken then fine, I have no issues with it. If it results in witch hunts then I have an issue with it.
It's not going to get any better than this from me so don't hold your breath.


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04 Aug 2014, 10:02 am

cyberdad wrote:
Raptor wrote:
About getting drunk:
I have to agree with cyberdad on this one. Getting so plastered as to be vulnerable is generally unwise for anyone and to do so you're knowingly taking on risks in exchange for the joy ride.
It's simple: Don't want to be vulnerable? Moderate the drinking. Period.


Dox47 wrote:
If you left your wallet full of money out in public, and someone took it, would it be wrong to say that you were partially responsible for that, rather than that people just shouldn't steal period and thus you have no accountability whatsoever? Ideally, yes, no one should victimize another person, but since we don't live in a utopia, it's wise not to make yourself vulnerable.


Remarkable! on this I'm in agreement with our resident right wingers. Must be time for me to see a counselor :wink: .


I believe Dox is a centrist. I think what it is is that you automatically categorise anyone that is sometimes critical of the left as a right winger.


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YippySkippy
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04 Aug 2014, 10:04 am

There is a big difference between moral/ethical responsibility and legal responsibility.
What kind of a society would we be if we said it's legal to rape drunk people?



Ann2011
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04 Aug 2014, 10:45 am

Raptor wrote:
That aside, I still stand behind my assertion that if ANYONE get's too drunk they are more vulnerable than they would be otherwise and have to take part of the blame for whatever befalls upon them while in that state that THEY are responsible for being in.


If someone is in an accident when they are driving drunk, they are responsible for their actions.



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04 Aug 2014, 10:53 am

YippySkippy wrote:
There is a big difference between moral/ethical responsibility and legal responsibility.
What kind of a society would we be if we said it's legal to rape drunk people?


It's not legal to rape anyone at any time nor should it ever be. HOWEVER, one can reduce one's chances of being raped (to name one misfortune) by not becoming so drunk that one no longer has full possession of ones faculties, therefor increasing ones vulnerability.


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sonofghandi
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04 Aug 2014, 12:13 pm

If I get drunk, then anything that happens to me of a criminal nature is partly my fault? I know that drinking makes you more vulnerable to a whole host of crimes, but drinking is still not in any way assuming partial responsibility for someone else's criminal actions. If I get mugged outside of a bar, it is not my fault. If I get raped at a party after having some drinks it is not my fault.

And assuming that the only people who get raped at college are drunk girls is not true at all. Date rape is all too common even without the drinking in an environment where movies have told all these guys that college is where you get laid all the time because college girls are sluts. Women are told not to go out alone after dark. Many college bookstores also sell pepper spray and rape whistles. It's not just drunken frat parties by any means.

As for the police, the vast majority of cases are treated as if the victim was lying from the very beginning thanks to this bullsh*t idea that so many women want to go through such degradation and humiliation just to get back at some guy. Not to mention that there are plenty of instances where rape kits are never tested (here in Ohio, they only started testing the 10+ years worth of back-logged kits after much public outcry). And the fact that so many women who report rape are harassed, insulted, and told it was their fault for drinking/dressing inappropriately/walking at night/asking for it. Throw in the fact that the vast majority of cases reported to the police are completely dismissed (and in many cases not even investigated).


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Kraichgauer
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04 Aug 2014, 2:34 pm

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
em_tsuj wrote:
Raptor wrote:
em_tsuj wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Where did I say that?


You said that college women shouldn't get drunk. That shifts the blame off of the person who chose to rape the drunk girl. A rapist is a rapist--end of the story. Nothing that a woman does places any responsibility for the rape on the woman. Nobody asks to be rape.


What I said was this \/ and if you'd read it you would have noticed I didnt specify women but everyone.
Raptor wrote:
Getting so plastered as to be vulnerable is generally unwise for anyone and to do so you're knowingly taking on risks in exchange for the joy ride.
It's simple: Don't want to be vulnerable? Moderate the drinking. Period.


I know what you wrote. You still haven't addressed my response. Regardless of what the victim does, the fault is always that of the perpetrator of the crime. That person actively follows through with the steps to commit a crime against the victim.

How would you feel if you reported a break-in at your home and the cop showed up and said, "Why did you move into the neighborhood? You knew it was a bad neighborhood? You set

In Spokane, there was just such a similar situation which was caught on video camera. A couple had called the police about a prostitution problem in their neighborhood, only to be told - very argumentatively - by the cops that they (the home owners) had chosen to live in a high crime area, and so they basically should just suck it up and stop calling the police. And this was a complaint about the commission of a crime, namely prostitution.


Having a little trouble with quotations? :P


Guess so.


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04 Aug 2014, 2:43 pm

Maybe chastity belts should come back in style.The girls and boys can drink their fill,pass out,and not worry about personal space intruders.But how do you pee with one on?Beer = bathroom trips.


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04 Aug 2014, 11:04 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Maybe chastity belts should come back in style.The girls and boys can drink their fill,pass out,and not worry about personal space intruders.But how do you pee with one on?Beer = bathroom trips.


You need the one with the slotted front...


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04 Aug 2014, 11:53 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Remarkable! on this I'm in agreement with our resident right wingers. Must be time for me to see a counselor :wink: .


I'm not right wing, I'm just anti-idiot.


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04 Aug 2014, 11:55 pm

sonofghandi wrote:
If I get drunk, then anything that happens to me of a criminal nature is partly my fault? I know that drinking makes you more vulnerable to a whole host of crimes, but drinking is still not in any way assuming partial responsibility for someone else's criminal actions. If I get mugged outside of a bar, it is not my fault. If I get raped at a party after having some drinks it is not my fault.


Do you leave your car running with the keys in the ignition and the doors unlocked when you go shopping? If you did, would people be wrong to not be entirely sympathetic when it got stolen?


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sonofghandi
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05 Aug 2014, 8:39 am

Dox47 wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
If I get drunk, then anything that happens to me of a criminal nature is partly my fault? I know that drinking makes you more vulnerable to a whole host of crimes, but drinking is still not in any way assuming partial responsibility for someone else's criminal actions. If I get mugged outside of a bar, it is not my fault. If I get raped at a party after having some drinks it is not my fault.


Do you leave your car running with the keys in the ignition and the doors unlocked when you go shopping? If you did, would people be wrong to not be entirely sympathetic when it got stolen?


Would it be appropriate for people to focus almost entirely on blaming the person who no longer has a car or the person who stole it? And leaving your car running is a lot different than having a few drinks.

Would you blame a person who got beaten to death if they pissed someone off? Would you blame someone who left a second story window unlocked for a burglary? Would you blame a stabbing victim if they had left a knife on the kitchen counter when their angry ex came around?


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