SoCal high school mass shooting

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Is this the police? I have no problems with law enforcement being armed. Do you have evidence that arming civilians saves lives?

Difficult to say what is going through the mind of a mass murderer? I doubt it's the same in each case. I posit that their intention initially is that firearms gives them the flexibility of maximising their kill rate (refer to Anders Brevik) and then concealing their weapon and then slip away. What drives them might vary but the compulsion/drive to act overrides any logic or moral compass anyway.

In reality as they are marching around a school or public place shooting they probably become aware of the probability/likelihood they will be caught. The NZ mass shooter Brendan Tarrant did try and slip away and hide as did the Boston Bombers.

I can't really think of any school shooters who walked up to police and tried to commit suicide via police fire.

So what your saying is they choose places people with guns can’t be so yiur solution is to make everywhere such a place, so they can have more possible targets for mass murder,

It is odd how they don’t shoot up police stations, gun clubs, gun ranges, gun shows, gun rallies

Difficult to say what is going through the mind of a mass murderer? I doubt it's the same in each case.

I posit that their intention initially is that firearms gives them the flexibility of maximising their kill rate (refer to Anders Brevik) and then concealing their weapon and then slip away.

If you look at Dylan Roof (as an example) he picked the 9 old people in a church, others pick on school children or in the case of Sandy Hook 27 babies. Anders Brevik murdered young adults and teens who had no way to defend themselves. They aren't particularly brave individuals are they....

Also, Breivik had no intention of getting away; he called the police and turned himself in, but they didn't believe him the first time so he kept killing for a while. Not exactly the actions of someone looking to "slip away".

Close but not quite how it happened. Anders Snortheimsmoen, the commander of the Norwegian Delta team of special counter-terror police, admitted that his officers nearly shot Breivik dead, despite his passive stance, because they feared he was wearing an explosive belt. The decision was made by a "very narrow margin".

Breivik hadn't actually finished killing as he was still hunting the remaining teens left on the island (not like Brendan Tarrant in NZ). In the midst of it he became aware of the special counter terror police and surrendered because he knew he would be shot if he ran.

The first shot was fired at 17:22.[103] The emergency medical services were informed about the shooting two minutes later.[104] One minute after that the police in Oslo were informed.[105] They immediately tried to reach Utøya as quickly as possible,[105] but did not have a helicopter that could take them straight to the island. By 17:30, the anti-terror police in Oslo (the Emergency Response Unit) were on the way to Utøya by automobile.[106]

One of the first to arrive on the scene was Marcel Gleffe, a German resident of Ski staying at Utvika Camping on the mainland. Recognizing gunshots, he piloted his boat to the island and began throwing life-jackets to young people in the water, rescuing as many as he could in four or five trips, after which the police asked him to stop. The Daily Telegraph credited him with saving up to 30 lives.[107] Another forty were saved by Hege Dalen and Toril Hansen, a married couple on vacation in the area. Dalen was helping from land[108] while Hansen and a neighbour camper made several trips to rescue people in the water.[108] Several dozen more were rescued by Kasper Ilaug, who made three trips to the island. Ilaug, a local resident, received a telephone call that "something terrible" was happening on Utøya and requesting help. He initially thought the call was a prank, but acted anyway.[109][110] Altogether, some 150 who swam away from the island were pulled out of the lake by campers on the opposite shore.

The anti-terror police reached the meeting point at 18:09, but had to wait a few minutes for a boat to take them across. They reached Utøya at 18:25. When confronted by the heavily armed police on the island, the gunman initially hesitated for a few seconds. When an officer yelled "surrender or be shot" he laid down his weapons.[111]

Anders Breivik called the 112 emergency phone number at least twice to surrender, at 18:01 and 18:26, and continued killing people in between. The police say Breivik hung up both times; they tried to call him back but did not succeed.[112]

When the police arrived at the scene, they were met by survivors begging the officers to throw away their weapons, as they were afraid that the men in uniforms would again open fire on them.[113]

During the attack, 69 people were killed, and of the 517 survivors,[114] 66 were wounded.[115]

Anders Breivik called the 112 emergency phone number at least twice to surrender, at 18:01 and 18:26, and continued killing people in between. The police say Breivik hung up both times; they tried to call him back but did not succeed.[112]

Seems strange that he wanted to surrender but then continued killing people? not normal...

All I can say is the Scandinavians need to practice more due diligence to plug gaps that allow psychopaths like Breivik to access weapons. The system is not at fault but it could be improved.

Meanwhile back in the states...there are thousands of far right doomesday preppers storing caches of weapons all over rural America waiting for a race war....

Like I've said, our system is one of the strictest in the world that still allow the populace to have firearms. I have both sporting and hunting guns. From what I can tell, Norway and Sweden have about the same system:

For hunting: six months studies, followed by a written exam and four firearms tests (safety, low-caliber rifle, shotgun, high-caliber rifle). The buying and installing an approved gun safe in your home (must be anchored in a wall if weighs less than 150kg). Then, after passing a background check, you might be allowed to buy your guns, assuming they pass a bunch of arbitrary criteria added on by the police and depending on if the license lady is in a good mood that day. Breivik's Ruger Ranch Rifle is probably the most "fun" gun likely to get through.

For sport: two-day course with a written and a practical exam overseen by a Captain from the army for the basics, followed by one years active training during which you have to pass three skill tests three times in a row and have valid (non-disqualified) results from a level 2 (national) competition. If your instructor thinks you're suitable to have a firearm, he'll give you a signed document to apply for a 5-year gun permit at the police, after passing a background check.

Breivik passed all these hurdles. Someone from the police remarked that even the Stasi couldn't have stopped his plan.

I'm not sure how much further the system can be taken without becoming tyrannical.

So long as they don't make moves to start the actual race war and meet whatever criteria there are for gun ownership and storage, let them. Then, when they die from other causes, non-insane preppers and sportsmen can pick their guns up second-hand for cheap.

I take your point, what do you think about a mandatory law that sports shooters and hunters be registered with sports or hunting clubs only and their weapons be hired only and kept in storage in club premises and access be policed by the club?

I became aware of this practice of hiding weapons caches from watching a documentary on the far right and Charlottesville march whereby right wingers who were members of the armed forces and other paramilitary stored caches of weapons around Charlottesville in anticipation of an all out conflict with Antifa. Members of Antifa who have ties with the military were made aware of this practice by the right wingers and advised to desist from using weapons other than a show of force. The fall out from the murder of Heather Heyer changed their tactics but a few were caught on film firing live rounds at the protestors. In the subsequent melee and lack of police intervention they also hunted blacks in packs afterward beating with sticks and objects accessible. Had an all out conflict arose they would have used live ammunition.

A logistical nightmare, wildly impractical and overly infringing on personal property rights, and highly ineffective.

Sport shooters are already required to have a club membership, but hunters aren't because you are allowed to hunt on your own lands or with the permission of the land owner (no club involvement). Furhermore, some hunters need their guns on a moments notice in the middle of the night, if they are called out to track down a traffic injured animal (required by law that a search be performed if the animal is suspected to be injured). Even regular hunting usually starts at an ungodly hour, when no one should be expected to be at the club to hand you your own guns.

You are also allowed to construct your own shooting range on your property (assuming you get in zoned and approved), where you may practice at your leisure. I'm not a landowner, but I'm still allowed to go to the outdoor range in my spare time for some ballistic meditation without much more than a message to the club that I'm doing so. Not to mention that a huge part of my shooting sport is muscle memory, quickdraw and dry fire practice, things you do at home with your personal gun and gear setup.

Your idea would also make gun licenses pointless.

And also: most of the gun-crimes here are comitted with smuggled in military surplus guns from former soviet states, not legal guns owned for legal purposes. Throwing more restrictions on legal gun owners is just a smokescreen; a way to punish the most law abiding group of people to appear to be doing something in the eyes of the average person instead of actually dealing with a difficult to solve problem.



This whole situation seems to go quite a bit beyond "preppers sitting on piles of guns". I wouldn't shed any tears if such people lost their guns, but I'm pretty sure that could be done without making things harder for sane citizens.

The point is if the right wing doomesday preppers can hide weapons caches then what about sleeper cells for Al Qaeda?

Doesn't the military use metal detectors when looking for a cache?

The cdc and fbi says it does.
But you don’t care. There’s loads of mass shootings stopped from ever happening too. By a civilian with a gun.