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Odin
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02 Mar 2008, 6:52 pm

The I-P conflict is a perfect example of how religion and nationalism can f*ck everything up. The big sticking points seem to be two things:

1. the Temple Mount/Al-Asqa Mosque

2. the Palestinians' desire for a right of return

#1 is the religious aspect and #2 is the nationalism aspect. The main problem seems to be that the Palestinians want their land that was taken from them in 1949 but the Israelis don't want all those Palestinians living in Israel because they have a much higher birth rate then they do. As long as Palestinians consider themselves a distinct nationality separate from other Levantine Arab nationalities and as long as Israel is ethnicity-based the conflict will continue. I fear It will lead to ethnic cleansing against one side or another.


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Ragtime
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03 Mar 2008, 2:30 pm

sartresue wrote:
If there was only one nation on earth that would accept Aspies as they are, my money is on Israel. Baruch Hashem.


Quote:
Families With Autistic Children Get A Break At Israeli Vacation Spot

Upon first glance, Aluteva looks like another homey and quaint country family resort in northern Israel, one of the country's most popular vacation destinations. The campus is surrounded by forest trees at the edge of Carmiel, families are lounging on plastic lounge chairs, and the green lawns and playground are dotted with colorful picket fences. Only upon closer look does it become apparent that Aluteva is highly different than any other country resorts in the area.

Aluteva is the only vacation spot in Israel, and possibly in the world, designed to cater to families with autistic children. The clues quickly become obvious; the campus is enclosed by fences and a security gate, the pool is raised instead of at ground level, and a young boy paces in a repeated pattern along the cement paths, clapping his hands.

Aluteva doesn't have the funds or intention to offer five star amenities, but it provides one amenity that makes some families feel like it's a five star resort: sensitivity to the needs of children with autism.

The concept was devised in 2003 by Alut, the Israeli Society for Autistic Children, to provide an innovative, permanent year-round solution for families for whom vacation is an essential need, but one that is often out of reach.

"We understand the complexity for families with autistic children to go out on vacation," explained Aluteva's director Nechama Amidan. "Often they don't take a vacation because it's difficult to go out on a vacation with an autistic child given the behavior of the child and safety concerns. The children are sometimes not aware of the dangers, and they can jump in a pool, cross a red light. They require the parents' constant surveillance."

Autism is a neurological development disorder that falls under the umbrella of pervasive development disorders (PDD) or autism spectrum disorders, and is usually characterized by abnormal social interactions, limited communication skills, and repetitive and obsessive behaviors which range in severity from individual to individual. According to Alut's estimates, some 5,000 to 6,000 Israelis are diagnosed with autism, a disorder which crosses all racial boundaries. More and more children are being diagnosed with autism worldwide, in part because of improved diagnostic techniques. Today about one child out of every 250 is diagnosed with autism.

Upon discovering their child has been diagnosed with the disorder, parents are often required to restructure their lives to learn about it, to discover appropriate educational frameworks and therapies, and to normalize as best as possible the family dynamic.

"Parents are often stressed from the moment they discover their child has a problem, and they naturally take upon themselves the responsibility to give their child the best care," explained Amidan. "Their concern with the future stresses them out and they aren't emotionally available to think about the long-term. Vacation seems like a special luxury for people who are in survival mode."

Vacation is particularly difficult for families of children diagnosed with low-functioning autism since at times these children can exhibit behaviors that deviate from what is socially acceptable in public places. At one point during this reporter's tour at Aluteva, a 15-year old boy named Ron repeatedly came up to smell my hair, a behavior which would have likely startled any vacationer at a regular hotel.

"He seems to like certain smells, certain shampoo smells. You're not the first one, but you can take it as a compliment," Ron's mother explained on the lawns of Aluteva. Ron's parents and younger sister are regulars at Aluteva. Ron cannot read, write, or speak, and smelling hair is likely a form of self-stimulation and a means of social interaction.

"My son needs constant activity; it's hard taking care of him. He likes going places, but it's hard to take him places because of the way he behaves. He doesn't enjoy himself, and we have to run around after him."

Generally children on the autistic spectrum prefer and require routine which steadies them in a world they perceive as threatening and ever-changing. Usually after a few days of acclimating at Aluteva, they begin to enjoy themselves. "He's already used to the place so he's happy when he comes here," Ron's mother said.

The premises of Aluteva have been converted from an Israeli army base. They are cheerfully decorated, compact and, what is more important for parents, enclosed. A specially trained staff is on hand full-time to keep an eye on the children as they freely wander around. Accommodations include eight guest rooms, most of which are built with two bedrooms and a small living room.

Children with autism generally require healthy doses of physical movement and sensory-visual stimuli due to impairments of the sensory system, and Aluteva is equipped with an indoor Gymboree and a unique room called "Snoozyland", which features furniture and items that titillate the senses: strobe lights, puffy cushions, and background music. The staff organizes special activities and tours in northern Israel catered to the learning needs of autistic children.

For the parents, the luxuries are not physical, but social and psychological.

A typical entry in Aluteva's guestbook reads: "You gave us the strength to continue with our routine, to enjoy the feeling of being a normal family, and to rest in a way we can't do in the center of the country."

At Aluteva they need not feel embarrassed or uncomfortable by their children's socially abnormal behaviors. It gives parents and siblings of individuals with autism the opportunity to share their experiences and challenges in a relaxing and casual environment.

Younger guests are not necessarily aware that Aluteva is a guest house for children with special needs. This is Sarah's third visit to Aluteva with her four children, ranging from ages three to eleven. At age four, her eldest son, Yonatan, was diagnosed with high-functioning autism, an informal term used to describe individuals who are able to function more independently in the real world. They have higher cognitive abilities and more mainstream day-to-day behaviors. Eleven-year-old Yonatan attends a regular school and only recently learned that he has been diagnosed with PDD.

"They think it's a vacation place with strange kids walking around," his mother explained.

Sarah recalls one frightening incident in which a boy with severe autism innocuously trespassed into her children's room in the middle of the night. When it happened a second time, her children simply escorted the boy back to his parents without discomfort or umbrage on the part of either families. "It's very educational," she said. "For higher functioning kids and their siblings there can be a positive sense of helping the lower functioning kids."

Next door to Aluteva is a petting zoo belonging to a neighboring boarding school where Aluteva sometimes takes the families. Animals are often used in therapy for children with PDD to teach them empathy and communication. As a few families staying at Aluteva take a walk across the forest to the zoo, one boy claps his hands routinely.

Sarah's five-year old daughter, who does not have autism, tugs at her mother's shirt and asks: "why does he do that?"

The scientific answer is that it is a form of self-stimulation, but her mother lovingly replies: "God made everyone different."

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/83399.php





Quote:
Israel Society for Autistic Children (ALUT)
ALUT, the Israel Society for Autistic Children, was founded in Israel in 1974 due to the inadequate and ineffective treatment facilities and services in Israel for people with autism. Today, there are approximately 3,000 persons with the disability in Israel. With the help of ALUT, there is a more comprehensive range of services to assist those with autism.

Autism is a complex developmental disability that typically appears during the first three years of childhood and occurs in an estimated 1 in 500 individuals. Autism interferes with the normal development of the brain and greatly affects social interaction, verbal and non-verbal communication skills, leisure and play activities. Distinguishing autism is challenging because the physical appearance of people with autism usually offers no apparent indication to others that a person suffers from the disease.

IHF's support enables ALUT to promote and institute efforts to help to enhance the lives of Israelis with autism. Some of ALUT's programs include: Provision of para-medical equipment to schools, programs that provide financial and emotional support to families, establishment of education, rehabilitation and occupational centers, provision of sheltered housing, and training of professionals.

Kindergartens and Schools, up to the age of 21 - In Israel there are more than 150 special kindergartens and schools throughout the country in which ALUT invests paramedical treatment, assists teaching staff in acquiring special equipment that serve the needs of the children, and helps to operate a variety of special after class activities aimed at developing additional skills such as art, music and others.

Family Center - The Family Center has been founded with the understanding that an autistic child's family needs support from the community.The center offers parents various services, such as: a library containing professional literature, up to date information on available treatment, personal counseling, seminars and conferences, support groups, guidance and referrals for parents to professionals for diagnosis.

A Home For Life - A Home For Life is a house located in a residential area, enabling its autistic residents a lifestyle similar, as much as possible, to their home lifestyle in collaborating with the community. The home serves as a supportive and learning framework. The residents are taught to develop capacities to function independently as much as possible, enabling them to control their personal hygiene, house cleaning, cooking and more.ALUT has founded such homes in Tel-Aviv, Jerusalem, Ramat Hasharon, Beer-Sheva, Nes-Ziona, Raanana, Kiryat-Ata, Pardes-Hanna and Hollon.ALUT plans to open more homes in Rishon Le-Zion, The Beit-Shean Valley, Carmiel, and Oum El-Phachem.

Employment Center for Adults - An Employment Center is next to each home, providing an answer to the special needs and capacities of an autistic adult in the field of employment and rehabilitation. It seeks to develop a personal program adjusted to the capabilities and potential of each member. The employment center, in most cases is located outside of the residence, in order to establish, as much as possible, a normal lifestyle. ALUT is developing various models of employment, from protected employment to employment supported by the community.

Through IHF, your support of ALUT will help to bring out the best of these extraordinary people who need the benefits, nurturing and guidance of ALUT's programs.

http://www.ihf.net/index.asp?id=26


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sartresue
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03 Mar 2008, 4:22 pm

Ragtime wrote:
sartresue wrote:
If there was only one nation on earth that would accept Aspies as they are, my money is on Israel. Baruch Hashem.


Quote:
Families With Autistic Children Get A Break At Israeli Vacation Spot

Upon first glance, Aluteva looks like another homey and quaint country family resort in northern Israel, one of the country's most popular vacation destinations. The campus is surrounded by forest trees at the edge of Carmiel, families are lounging on plastic lounge chairs, and the green lawns and playground are dotted with colorful picket fences. Only upon closer look does it become apparent that Aluteva is highly different than any other country resorts in the area.

Aluteva is the only vacation spot in Israel, and possibly in the world, designed to cater to families with autistic children. The clues quickly become obvious; the campus is enclosed by fences and a security gate, the pool is raised instead of at ground level, and a young boy paces in a repeated pattern along the cement paths, clapping his hands.

Aluteva doesn't have the funds or intention to offer five star amenities, but it provides one amenity that makes some families feel like it's a five star resort: sensitivity to the needs of children with autism.

The concept was devised in 2003 by Alut, the Israeli Society for Autistic Children, to provide an innovative, permanent year-round solution for families for whom vacation is an essential need, but one that is often out of reach.

"We understand the complexity for families with autistic children to go out on vacation," explained Aluteva's director Nechama Amidan. "Often they don't take a vacation because it's difficult to go out on a vacation with an autistic child given the behavior of the child and safety concerns. The children are sometimes not aware of the dangers, and they can jump in a pool, cross a red light. They require the parents' constant surveillance."

Autism is a neurological development disorder that falls under the umbrella of pervasive development disorders (PDD) or autism spectrum disorders, and is usually characterized by abnormal social interactions, limited communication skills, and repetitive and obsessive behaviors which range in severity from individual to individual. According to Alut's estimates, some 5,000 to 6,000 Israelis are diagnosed with autism, a disorder which crosses all racial boundaries. More and more children are being diagnosed with autism worldwide, in part because of improved diagnostic techniques. Today about one child out of every 250 is diagnosed with autism.

Upon discovering their child has been diagnosed with the disorder, parents are often required to restructure their lives to learn about it, to discover appropriate educational frameworks and therapies, and to normalize as best as possible the family dynamic.

"Parents are often stressed from the moment they discover their child has a problem, and they naturally take upon themselves the responsibility to give their child the best care," explained Amidan. "Their concern with the future stresses them out and they aren't emotionally available to think about the long-term. Vacation seems like a special luxury for people who are in survival mode."

Vacation is particularly difficult for families of children diagnosed with low-functioning autism since at times these children can exhibit behaviors that deviate from what is socially acceptable in public places. At one point during this reporter's tour at Aluteva, a 15-year old boy named Ron repeatedly came up to smell my hair, a behavior which would have likely startled any vacationer at a regular hotel.

"He seems to like certain smells, certain shampoo smells. You're not the first one, but you can take it as a compliment," Ron's mother explained on the lawns of Aluteva. Ron's parents and younger sister are regulars at Aluteva. Ron cannot read, write, or speak, and smelling hair is likely a form of self-stimulation and a means of social interaction.

"My son needs constant activity; it's hard taking care of him. He likes going places, but it's hard to take him places because of the way he behaves. He doesn't enjoy himself, and we have to run around after him."

Generally children on the autistic spectrum prefer and require routine which steadies them in a world they perceive as threatening and ever-changing. Usually after a few days of acclimating at Aluteva, they begin to enjoy themselves. "He's already used to the place so he's happy when he comes here," Ron's mother said.

The premises of Aluteva have been converted from an Israeli army base. They are cheerfully decorated, compact and, what is more important for parents, enclosed. A specially trained staff is on hand full-time to keep an eye on the children as they freely wander around. Accommodations include eight guest rooms, most of which are built with two bedrooms and a small living room.

Children with autism generally require healthy doses of physical movement and sensory-visual stimuli due to impairments of the sensory system, and Aluteva is equipped with an indoor Gymboree and a unique room called "Snoozyland", which features furniture and items that titillate the senses: strobe lights, puffy cushions, and background music. The staff organizes special activities and tours in northern Israel catered to the learning needs of autistic children.

For the parents, the luxuries are not physical, but social and psychological.

A typical entry in Aluteva's guestbook reads: "You gave us the strength to continue with our routine, to enjoy the feeling of being a normal family, and to rest in a way we can't do in the center of the country."

At Aluteva they need not feel embarrassed or uncomfortable by their children's socially abnormal behaviors. It gives parents and siblings of individuals with autism the opportunity to share their experiences and challenges in a relaxing and casual environment.

Younger guests are not necessarily aware that Aluteva is a guest house for children with special needs. This is Sarah's third visit to Aluteva with her four children, ranging from ages three to eleven. At age four, her eldest son, Yonatan, was diagnosed with high-functioning autism, an informal term used to describe individuals who are able to function more independently in the real world. They have higher cognitive abilities and more mainstream day-to-day behaviors. Eleven-year-old Yonatan attends a regular school and only recently learned that he has been diagnosed with PDD.

"They think it's a vacation place with strange kids walking around," his mother explained.

Sarah recalls one frightening incident in which a boy with severe autism innocuously trespassed into her children's room in the middle of the night. When it happened a second time, her children simply escorted the boy back to his parents without discomfort or umbrage on the part of either families. "It's very educational," she said. "For higher functioning kids and their siblings there can be a positive sense of helping the lower functioning kids."

Next door to Aluteva is a petting zoo belonging to a neighboring boarding school where Aluteva sometimes takes the families. Animals are often used in therapy for children with PDD to teach them empathy and communication. As a few families staying at Aluteva take a walk across the forest to the zoo, one boy claps his hands routinely.

Sarah's five-year old daughter, who does not have autism, tugs at her mother's shirt and asks: "why does he do that?"

The scientific answer is that it is a form of self-stimulation, but her mother lovingly replies: "God made everyone different."

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/83399.php





Quote:
Israel Society for Autistic Children (ALUT)
ALUT, the Israel Society for Autistic Children, was founded in Israel in 1974 due to the inadequate and ineffective treatment facilities and services in Israel for people with autism. Today, there are approximately 3,000 persons with the disability in Israel. With the help of ALUT, there is a more comprehensive range of services to assist those with autism.

Autism is a complex developmental disability that typically appears during the first three years of childhood and occurs in an estimated 1 in 500 individuals. Autism interferes with the normal development of the brain and greatly affects social interaction, verbal and non-verbal communication skills, leisure and play activities. Distinguishing autism is challenging because the physical appearance of people with autism usually offers no apparent indication to others that a person suffers from the disease.

IHF's support enables ALUT to promote and institute efforts to help to enhance the lives of Israelis with autism. Some of ALUT's programs include: Provision of para-medical equipment to schools, programs that provide financial and emotional support to families, establishment of education, rehabilitation and occupational centers, provision of sheltered housing, and training of professionals.

Kindergartens and Schools, up to the age of 21 - In Israel there are more than 150 special kindergartens and schools throughout the country in which ALUT invests paramedical treatment, assists teaching staff in acquiring special equipment that serve the needs of the children, and helps to operate a variety of special after class activities aimed at developing additional skills such as art, music and others.

Family Center - The Family Center has been founded with the understanding that an autistic child's family needs support from the community.The center offers parents various services, such as: a library containing professional literature, up to date information on available treatment, personal counseling, seminars and conferences, support groups, guidance and referrals for parents to professionals for diagnosis.

A Home For Life - A Home For Life is a house located in a residential area, enabling its autistic residents a lifestyle similar, as much as possible, to their home lifestyle in collaborating with the community. The home serves as a supportive and learning framework. The residents are taught to develop capacities to function independently as much as possible, enabling them to control their personal hygiene, house cleaning, cooking and more.ALUT has founded such homes in Tel-Aviv, Jerusalem, Ramat Hasharon, Beer-Sheva, Nes-Ziona, Raanana, Kiryat-Ata, Pardes-Hanna and Hollon.ALUT plans to open more homes in Rishon Le-Zion, The Beit-Shean Valley, Carmiel, and Oum El-Phachem.

Employment Center for Adults - An Employment Center is next to each home, providing an answer to the special needs and capacities of an autistic adult in the field of employment and rehabilitation. It seeks to develop a personal program adjusted to the capabilities and potential of each member. The employment center, in most cases is located outside of the residence, in order to establish, as much as possible, a normal lifestyle. ALUT is developing various models of employment, from protected employment to employment supported by the community.

Through IHF, your support of ALUT will help to bring out the best of these extraordinary people who need the benefits, nurturing and guidance of ALUT's programs.

http://www.ihf.net/index.asp?id=26


A ray of hope topic

Dear Ragtime: There is this story: I think it is biblical, and paraphrased it states that God will not destroy the world because there is one good person in it. I hope I am right in that Israel will not be destroyed because such a good thing is happening: ALUT. Israel has done so much good in the world and here is more proof at how wonderful this great land is. :D

There was so much anger and negativity in this thread. I did not even want to participate in it anymore because of this. When I saw that you had posted I was loathe to look because I thought there would be another unproductive rant. I am glad i took the time.

Thank you, thank you for making my day. Sincerely, Susan


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ed
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03 Mar 2008, 4:41 pm

sartresue wrote:
There was so much anger and negativity in this thread. I did not even want to participate in it anymore because of this.


Are you kidding? We've been discussing one of the most controversial topics in the world today, and we've been doing it very well, without name-calling or insulting each other. In fact, I was going to post a thank-you to the participants for keeping it so civil, and then you say that...

Back on page 1 you said:

sartresue wrote:
Destructive arguments topic

I am no moderator, but I am going to moderate here.

This topic is degenerating into two sides that are not even agreeing to disagree--they are not even starting from the same premise.

There is only anger here. And it is non-productive.


You are wrong. There has been very little anger in this topic, at least until you tried to introduce it. And it has been a productive discussion, I think.



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03 Mar 2008, 5:49 pm

ed wrote:
sartresue wrote:
There was so much anger and negativity in this thread. I did not even want to participate in it anymore because of this.


Are you kidding? We've been discussing one of the most controversial topics in the world today, and we've been doing it very well, without name-calling or insulting each other. In fact, I was going to post a thank-you to the participants for keeping it so civil, and then you say that...

Back on page 1 you said:

sartresue wrote:
Destructive arguments topic

I am no moderator, but I am going to moderate here.

This topic is degenerating into two sides that are not even agreeing to disagree--they are not even starting from the same premise.

There is only anger here. And it is non-productive.


You are wrong. There has been very little anger in this topic, at least until you tried to introduce it. And it has been a productive discussion, I think.


Ed,
I agree this is probably one of the most controversial subjects in the world. Maybe it's AS but I don't see how anyone can say "There is only anger here. And itis non-productive." I have not noticed anyone getting a little heated up, let alone angry. But we do have another factor here, it's just as controversial it's gender. It is a known fact that two men can have a good lively conversation and women observers will say they argued. Ed, thanks for allowing me to put my 2 shekels in, I'm pro-Israel :D can you tell? :D But it's always good for people to sit down and present differing opinions.
Take care of yourself and once again thanks.
BB"D"RAV


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paolo
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09 Mar 2008, 12:09 pm

From Agency France Presse:

"In the wake of the attack, a hardline minister called for the revocation of the residency permits of the family of the man who carried out the attack, a Palestinian from east Jerusalem with the blue Israeli identity card that allowed him free movement across the country.

"We should pass a resolution or change the law if necessary so that the family of anyone who carries out an attack... should have their residency permit immediately revoked and their homes destroyed," Eli Yishai, trade and industry minister, said in a statement."

This is an old Israeli policy of establishing "collective responsibility" fo the family of Palestinian militants. Destroy their houses, cut their olive trees. It has been applied for years in the territories. But the gunman here was an Israeli citizen living in East Jerusalem.



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09 Mar 2008, 2:21 pm

Genocide is the systematic destruction of a people. A hundred deaths is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.

As I see it - choose one from each choice, but once you choose the first choice, you must agree to choose the same one in all other choices...or we'll have to kill you.


I(inhabitants of the region) am (Palestinian/Israeli), who have been here since before the (Israelis/Palestinians). (Yaweh/Allah) gave this land specifically to my people, and not the (Isrealis/Palestinians). I have a holy right, and a holy duty, to be here. Anything that helps the
(Israelis/Palestinians) is a threat to the (Israelis/Palestinians), and a danger to us all. Anyone who speaks to the (Israelis/Palestinians) is a traitor, and he and his family should die for it. Anyone who advocates peace between us is a danger, and he should die for it. Anyone who doesn't wholly agree with, wholly support, advocate every position we hold, is a danger to the (Israelis/Palestinians) and should die. War forever and ever, without end, amen...

I sometimes wonder if Armageddon doesn't mean the last battle, but a perpetual battle. A Jewish guy living in Italy was complaining about almost the exact same situation, 2,000 years ago, his name was Josephus.

Frankly, in any other place in the world (say, Northern Ireland), you'd think people were so sick of it, that they'd make peace, just to enjoy some. But not here.



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18 Mar 2008, 2:23 am

Image



This whole argument seems a bit one sided to me when you look at some maps.

Two thirds of Palenstien people are refugees, they should be allowed to live back in Israel aka occupied Palenstien land.

Israel needs to pull out all it's millitary and Jewish settlements from the Gaza strip and west bank, then start relocating all the Palestien refugees back into the land they took. Then there will be more of a chance of peace.

Quote:
The land was never the Palestinians land in the first place. I don't know any other way to make this more plain. PALESTINE NEVER EXISTED BEFORE THE PARTITION!


Also I don't buy that argument, making over 5 million people refugees and percuting people isn't right. That's like saying because where you live isn't a country you can be forced out of your home.



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18 Mar 2008, 9:52 am

I guess you are quite ok with Jewish blood flowing through the streets then?

because that will be the end result of all of this. you are supporting terrorists if you support the PA.

why did these young men have to die?


`Arab Terrorist Attacks Jerusalem's Merkaz HaRav Yeshiva: 8 dead

If you click on the link above you will see what these "poor" palestinians are really about they weren't forced out, the majority of them left to join the other arab nations in 1948 in the war of independence to wipe out the Jews. they all celebrate when Jews get killed. These are the same people that were dancing in the streets and handing out candy on 9/11. I will not shed a tear for these people. I can shed a tear for those 8 innocent boys that were gunned down in their prime.



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18 Mar 2008, 10:07 am

Here are some interviews with three former Palestinian terrorists, who all tell about the propaganda they were fed, and then the truths that they eventually discovered about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict:

Walid Shoebat, Palestinian Zionist (2 parts)
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-1610.ram
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-1611.ram

Dr. Ergun Caner (2 interviews, in 2 parts each)
Arab Christian:
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-675.ram
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-676.ram
Behind the Veil:
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-1605.ram
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-1606.ram

Zachariah Anani, Our Friend the Terrorist (2 parts)
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-696.ram
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-697.ram


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18 Mar 2008, 2:17 pm

Nobody is discussing the topic.

When terrorists use inflammatory language this should be condemned. Using the word ‘Holocaust’ in an inflammatory way should be condemned no question. First of all it refers to killing civilians which is that tactic of terrorists. It is pretty shameful but it doesn't surprise me.

Israel was badly conceived. There is nothing inflammatory about that statement it its fact. Israel was created at the expense of the Palistians and that should have never been allowed to happen. The British made many errors so they share some of the historical responsibility, but let us not forget the terrorist attacks by Zionist terrorists groups on British and Arabs at the time that we were defending Jewish people in Europe. This had never been an entirely one side argument and should not be presented as one. Zoinism was not the popular view of the Jewish community even up until the early 30s. Zoinism became popular because a reaction rightly or wrongly to WWII, but it was rushed and done at the expense of Palistians with no consensus or compassion. Very, very unfortunate mistake.

I think Israel should exist but also Palestine, and both have to exist in a viable way. Gaza is not viable it can't turn in into an East Pakistan/Bangladesh it needs closer geographical links with the West Bank. Both Israel and Palestine should have viable access to the Mediterranean and the border with Egypt. There needs to be 'turn style' arrangements to facilitate, which may require an international presence in these areas for some time to come.

Ultra-nationalist Jews distort the image of many Jews who actually care about the hardship of other groups. In South Africa, the Jewish community was one of the main oppositions to apartheid. What we have in with the Palestinian situation is effectively grand apartheid. The only difference is there isn't puppet leaders in the 'home states' however this is not necessary as the resources are easily controlled externally. The settlements, which still do exist, are a bit like those large debauched resorts that opened up for white South Africans in the home states. Not in the fact that the settlements are much more conservative/orthodox but in the fact that they are both equally as exploitative an morally corrupt.



paolo
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18 Mar 2008, 3:45 pm

It’s difficult to talk about these questions. Why ? One reason is that there is a nearly omnipotent propaganda machine of the Jewish-Sionist community which may derail any political candidacy of politicians who don’t agree with Israeli policy. In this sense someone said wittily that Israel is the only small power which succeded in subjugating a big power (the US) as a satellite power. This fact is enforced by the very effective intervention of AIPAC on the electoral process, by the very strong presence of Jews in the media and by a now consolidated alliance between the « Christian » right and the political establishement.
Is this statement a revised edition of the fabricated « protocols of Sion » ? Certainly not.
The Jews are simply the « people of the book », highly literate, highly sophisticated intellectually, very cohesive as an ethnic group. There is no need of a plot or a cabale like that envisioned by the antisemites to obtain more influence in society than that of the Arab taxidrivers. The reason of so strong passions exibited even here is that there is a real policy of intimidation against any airing of critiques of the Israeli policy. Newspaper staffs covering the Middle-East, in Israel and elsewhere is nearly always composed of Jews. They are often very critical of Israel but they can say « I am a Jew » and it's more difficult to expel them, it's a kind of insurance policy. Why should be that be needed if there was not intimidation? The BBC which is more balanced in its rendering the newsn from the Middle-East, is ostructed in its work by the Israeli authorities. Even Wikipedia is censored and edited by the Israeli information centers via the American embassy.
I foresee the reactions to what I say here, but this is only a confirmation of the undue strength of the Jewish opinion and power lobby.



ed
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18 Mar 2008, 5:08 pm

This discussion was actually sort-of completed, but now has been resurrected. Before you write a reply, please read the discussion that came before, so you know what has already been said, and how it was said. We rejected the idea of starting an argument here, and have actually had a very good discussion. Please respect that, and don't try to start an argument now.



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18 Mar 2008, 6:14 pm

paolo wrote:
It’s difficult to talk about these questions. Why ? One reason is that there is a nearly omnipotent propaganda machine of the Jewish-Sionist community which may derail any political candidacy of politicians who don’t agree with Israeli policy. In this sense someone said wittily that Israel is the only small power which succeded in subjugating a big power (the US) as a satellite power. This fact is enforced by the very effective intervention of AIPAC on the electoral process, by the very strong presence of Jews in the media and by a now consolidated alliance between the « Christian » right and the political establishement.
Is this statement a revised edition of the fabricated « protocols of Sion » ? Certainly not.
The Jews are simply the « people of the book », highly literate, highly sophisticated intellectually, very cohesive as an ethnic group. There is no need of a plot or a cabale like that envisioned by the antisemites to obtain more influence in society than that of the Arab taxidrivers. The reason of so strong passions exibited even here is that there is a real policy of intimidation against any airing of critiques of the Israeli policy. Newspaper staffs covering the Middle-East, in Israel and elsewhere is nearly always composed of Jews. They are often very critical of Israel but they can say « I am a Jew » and it's more difficult to expel them, it's a kind of insurance policy. Why should be that be needed if there was not intimidation? The BBC which is more balanced in its rendering the newsn from the Middle-East, is ostructed in its work by the Israeli authorities. Even Wikipedia is censored and edited by the Israeli information centers via the American embassy.
I foresee the reactions to what I say here, but this is only a confirmation of the undue strength of the Jewish opinion and power lobby.


Dude, get help.


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18 Mar 2008, 7:23 pm

Betzalel wrote:
I guess you are quite ok with Jewish blood flowing through the streets then?

because that will be the end result of all of this. you are supporting terrorists if you support the PA.

why did these young men have to die?


`Arab Terrorist Attacks Jerusalem's Merkaz HaRav Yeshiva: 8 dead

If you click on the link above you will see what these "poor" palestinians are really about they weren't forced out, the majority of them left to join the other arab nations in 1948 in the war of independence to wipe out the Jews. they all celebrate when Jews get killed. These are the same people that were dancing in the streets and handing out candy on 9/11. I will not shed a tear for these people. I can shed a tear for those 8 innocent boys that were gunned down in their prime.


I thought it would be good to look at some maps for this debate.
Just giving my view point doesn't mean I'm supporting any terrorists. That is a bit extreme.

Yes I read the link and it made my stomach turn. I'm not ok with Jewish or Palestinians or anyone getting killed.
Don't forget innocent Palestinian people have to deal with the same sort of thing. Far more Palestinians people get killed than Israelies in the conflict any how.

I wouldn't trust what you see in the media either, it's always a bit distorted and doesn't tell the full story.
I used to actually side more with Israel from what I saw in the media. But then I did a bit of research on the history and I think Israel is in the wrong, it is more like they are wiping out Palestine. They have started pulling Jewish settlements out of Palestine now which means they have changed their thinking, which is good.



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18 Mar 2008, 7:42 pm

To lighten things up.

How about they join the two countries together and call it Pisrael or Israelstein or Paleisrael.

How about Boganland in my honour. 8) maybe Boganstein and I could be king. :)