Why arethe Israelis allowed to get away with such injustice?

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Damn straight! I heartily believe that Europe should be returned to those who are the closest lineal descendants of the old Europeans who first settled there tens of thousands of years ago.

That means the Irish and the Basques get Germany. No ifs ands or buts about it.

ay yi yi... Ok, on this basis, everyone should immediately move back to Olduvai gorge, where it all began.

Well, I think one reason they 'get away with it', is that they're organized. The Arabs (and Muslims in general) are not. But then Islam itself was not set up as a hierarchical religion, there's supposedly 73 different kinds of Islam (and 72 types will send you straight to H E double toothpicks.

Another is knowing how opinion is formed. If you have a strong presence in media, have organized people in key voting states, no American president would dare move against you. Having money helps too (although a good majority of American Jews are not as rich as you'd think).

This war has been going on for thousands of years. Before America, European nations, classical Greek and Roman, back through Assyrians, Babylonians, and to the ancient Egyptians, the Jews and Palestinians have been fighting.

I'd llike to see a 2-state solution and peace. So would a lot of other people, even some in the region. But as a cause, the Palestinians are the one thing that unite the Umma, so there are a lot of people who simultaneously work for a reconquista of Al-Kuds, and also hoping it never happens.

Islam is one religion. There are three dominant sects, with slight variations, mainly centered around the succession of the caliphate - Sunni, Shi'a, Ibadi. Sunnis are divided into 4 schools of though - Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki, and Shafi. The Shi'a are divided into these groups - Twelver, Ismaili, Zaidi. Then there are "heretic" sects such as Druze, Alawites, Alevis, etc, most which claim to belong to the Shi'a sect. The first two are highly secretive and mysterious, and are considered as syncretic religions with gnosticism and neo-platonism. The third has elements of Turkic shamanism. There's also one mysterious syncretic sect in one Indonesian island which is almost extinct and whose name I've forgotten.

I don't know why heirachy you're talking about. Sunnis believe that the Caliph should be the strongest man, preferably from the Quraish tribe. Shi'a believe that the Caliph should be decended from Imam Ali. The Ibadi believe that any wise, just, and kind ruler can become Caliph, regardless of whether he's elected or a monarch. Nowdays, this Ibadi view has become common with the Sunni, with more emphasis on the democratic part.



The Jews have rejected most of the prophets (peace be upon them). The Quran states that they have lost the right to the holy land. The return of the Jews to the Levant is a sign of the day of judgement, one of the lesser ones. The end result is the same as what happened in the 13th century against the crusaders - The Zionists will lose. By divine decree, it's not their land.

@Khan Sama

Eventually there will be total annihilation the Middle East, Israel and Palestine completely devoid of human life. Everything's a graveyard.

Or there will be a two-state solution.

1/5th of the world's population is Muslim.

There are around 5 million jews in Israel. 2.5 million Arabs (excluding the occupied territories), out of which 75% support Israel (bedouins, druze mainly).

1.5-1.8 billion Muslims.

5 million Jews.

Yes, the Quran does say that the day of judgement will begin when the last Muslim dies. The angel Michael (AHS) will blow his horn, and all the unbelievers will fall dead immediately. Then, he shall blow it again, and all shall be resurrected, and will be judged for their sins. However, that's after Muslims make a clear majority, 50%, of the world's population. That's centuries away. Perhaps another millenium.

Yes, I am not doubting what you say, that everything will be a graveyard. I just don't believe that it will occur in this lifetime, unless a vast majority of the world's non-Muslim population will perish. Surely, no Muslim is capable of such an act. We don't possess 14,000 active nuclear warheads as does the USA.

No, what I meant to say is that the Jews and Arabs wil exterminate each other unless a compromise is reached. Once all the Jews and Arabs are dead from fighting eachother, the disputed lands will be occupied only by ruins and dead bodies. After that, other powers will swoop in and fight over what's left of the oil if they're no one left to guard it. Sadly, the death of us all could be that damned oil.

Oil is a temporary wealth. Just like how fertile land was in the past. Palestine contains neither. The dispute is holy in nature.

Islam has many conditions for waging war. Attacking Israel is justified, as it's a continuation of a self-defence war started in 1947. Islam has many conditions for waging war - Not even a tree can be harmed by marching armies.

There's a hadith in Sahih Bukhari, the prophet Muhammed (SAW) was marching his army towards Mecca. On the path, there was a b***h, who just gave birth to puppies. The prophet (SAW) ordered that his army change their path so as to not disturb the animal.

Rest assured, if genocide is committed, if Muslims are behind it, then they are not Muslims. Mass killing is allowed only under these terms:

If the enemy is pagan, and had entered into an alliance with the Muslims, later backstabbed them (during a battle), and refused to surrender (during a siege) after the three holy months (Hajj, the month prior, and the month following - during these months, it's forbidden for Muslims to advance, only self-defence is allowed), then, it is justified to kill those pagans who took part in the battle. As the Jews are not pagans, it's absolutely forbidden. In fact, after conquering them, we are supposed to treat them like equals, apart from forbidding their recruitment into the armed forces, and taxing them (Jizya). This applies to all non-Muslims, but Christians and Jews have a few benefits compared to pagans, such as their women being allowed to marry Muslim men.

The only compromise that Muslims will accept is this: That Palestine be returned to us, that the Jews accept paying Jizya, and will be offered protection in return. This is the best compromise, considering we sheltered them for 13 centuries while Christians slaughtered them in masses. The end result is, they stabbed us in the back.

So their deaths are justified due to their religion?


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Religious taxes, executions according to religion - the sort of reasons why I support the secular state.




translation: the 'benefit' is that if Muslims lust after Christian women, they can have them, but the pagans are off-limits.



which the Jews would say was taken from them in the first place, and which they probably took from an older tribe, which surely took it from an older one....

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They obviously prefer to protect themselves and pay taxes to their own government.



No, you didn't shelter them, your ancestors sheltered theirs. The present generations of Jews and Muslims (and Christians for that matter) have nothing to do with it, had no say in it, weren't even born yet and thus have no merit or responsibility for it.



Alternatively, the region will run out of oil first, leading to ruin, famine and collapse - Saudi Arabia for example produces nothing other than oil and terrorists. And if there were no oil in the region, the West wouldn't need Israel and Egypt anymore, so no reason to subsidise them.
Perhaps Gaza should be handed over to Egypt and the West Bank to Jordan (both of which are at least functioning states) as the Palestinians have shown themselves unable to govern themselves and, ironically enough, would be far better off today under any of the peace accords they have been offered than they are now.

I think the Jews are done relying on others to shelter them, that hasn't worked out well for them in the past. Also, they've managed to do more with their arid little scrap of land than anyone else has, and I can't see them giving that up anytime soon. Fortunately, they've proven themselves more than adapt at fighting off whatever hordes the other countries in the region have thrown at them, despite being massively outnumbered. Of course, if all else fails they've got nukes and one hell of a big brother watching their back, so I don't see Israel falling anytime in the foreseeable future.

Yes. It is ok to kill those POWs who backstabbed you during a battle, if they were pagans. Restraint is to be exercised in the case of Christians and Jews.



Suit yourself, we all have different views. I live in a pagan society, and for many reasons, support this doctrine. I live in a "secular" nation, but under the previous government, which was a hindutva right wing party, we suffered from a lot of discrimination.



It's discouraged to marry Christian and Jewish women, but permitted, as they are also fellow monotheists.



Yes, divine revelation decreed that the Jews were to have Palestine at first, it later decreed that it was to pass to the Muslims when the Quran was revealed to Muhammed (SAW)



Actually, Muslims also have a tax - Zakat. It varies depending on the type of work, and is only waived for the poor. The Jizya tax is a fixed percentage, regardless of type of work, and regardless of wealth status. After retirement, poor Jews and Christians are given a pension. This was effectively imposed by Umar ibn Al-Khattab, the second Caliph.



If you have to put it that way, many Palestinians whose fathers sold land to the Jews are still alive to this day.



Wow, you really are ignorant. Ever bothered to check up on the economic policies of the oil-rich Arab nations? Ever wondered what's the biggest source of income for Saudi Arabia, excluding the oil?

Btw, only 12% of Saudi's population supports Osama Bin Laden, compared to over 20% in Pakistan. Most recruits in Al-Qaeda are believed to be Pashtuns, Egyptians, Yeminis. Al-Qaeda has maybe 1,000-2,000 personnel at most, Taliban 7,000-10,000. Hezbollah, a Shi'ite force in Lebabnon, has over 15,000 active personnel.

Returning Gaza and the West bank will not change a single thing. Although both countries, Jordan & Egypt are pro-Israel now, Hezbollah will not stop until Israel ceases to exist.



That's because they have the financial and military support of the world's largest terrorist state, as you yourself just said.

Your statements and reality do not go together. You are making up stories and trying to gloss over what muslims do. Take a reality check and tell us why the rest of the muslims don't stop this:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

If it goes against the Quran, then it is not Islam. I can point out terrorism in the Bible. I can point out to rape (including against 3 year old children) in it. I can point out X-rated pornography in it. I can point out the atrocities committed by Christian armies in modern times. I can point out atrocities committed by the IDF.


You're pointing out attrocities committed by a few thousand people. out of 1/5th of the world's population. Wow.

Last edited by Khan_Sama on 27 Sep 2008, 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

If it is not the muslims doing it, who is?

Look at the history behind these terrorist groups. Look who created them, funded them, or was responsible for their existence.

It's your own country (in the case of Al-Qaeda, Taliban, and the rise of Hamas, PLO, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, etc).

External factors are responsible for the rise of Islamic extremism.

When did all of this begin? I can trace it all to the rise of the first truly terrorist outfit, the Jewish Haganah.

Last edited by Khan_Sama on 27 Sep 2008, 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

My country did not exist until 250 years ago. Islam has been waging war against any who don't want to be subjected since it started. The terror tactics have not changed either because committing acts of terror is written in the muslim instruction manual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_in_the_Muslim_world

I'm not going to throw around loaded words like "terrorist", since their definition is so often is dispute. Israel does have the support of the US, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. We may sell them weapons and share intelligence with them, but we don't fight their wars for them, they do that themselves. The Arab nations that repeatedly attacked Israel were Soviet client states who had been supplied with Russian weapons, training and intelligence, so it's not exactly like they weren't fighting fair, the people attacking them just chose the wrong backers. No one cares what some religious text says, this is a modern geopolitical issue, and if you want to be taken seriously you need to approach it as such. Since it's been shown on a number of occasions that the Arabs can't beat Israel militarily, and in fact lose territory every time they've tried, they're the ones who are going to have to compromise. The first thing that's going to have to go is this "Israel has no right to exist" garbage, it's simply not going to fly. It's not something the Israelis can negotiate on, so it needs to be dropped before any diplomatic progress can be made. Otherwise, I've got no problem with standing back and letting the Israelis take a free hand to ensure their security, whatever that might entail. I'm kind of surprised they've been as restrained as they have been about the Iranian nuke project, when Saddam tried that they blew the snot out of it. Point is, Israel will be there, the Muslims can learn to live with that, or not.