god bless you... what do you mean i'm fired?

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How many of the respondents to this thread have actually read the article? This, from the article, is the actual rule in question:
The document, called Religion or Belief: A Practical Guide for the NHS, states: “Members of some religions... are expected to preach and to try to convert other people. In a workplace environment this can cause many problems, as non-religious people and those from other religions or beliefs could feel harassed and intimidated by this behaviour.

“To avoid misunderstandings and complaints on this issue, it should be made clear to everyone from the first day of training and/or employment, and regularly restated, that such behaviour, notwithstanding religious beliefs, could be construed as harassment under the disciplinary and grievance procedures.”

One cannot "preach [or] try to convert other people."
I wonder how insistent this nurse was on praying.

I am a HCP at a Catholic hospital. It is considered, at least at my hospital, extremely unprofessional - about on the level of cursing wildly in front of patients - to initiate discussions on politics, religion, or other hot-button issues with patients (unless one is a chaplain, Sister, priest, deacon, etc.). Even if a patient initiates the discussion, it is best not to become too involved in those types of topics.

Personally, I would be a little nervous to find that my HCP was resorting to magical thinking in their care of me if a nurse, or any other HCP, offered to pray. If they honestly believe that prayer works, would they work as hard at the non-magical, evidence-based medicine that I actually need? Would they prescribe less pain medication or antibiotics based on the belief that their prayer would take the edge off?

Banning anyone with religion from work isnt improving your position. Congratulations, you just made most of the world unemployable.

Also, well done for failing to keep the moral high ground by insisting on childish namecalling, fool.

And last prize goes to you, for assuming I have a pro-christian bias. I dont. I happen to live in a western Christian nation. That would be a statement of FACT, and little more. My bias lies towards a common sense approach to such matters. This woman has hurt NO-ONE. Her religion has caused ZERO HARM... and yet people are insistent that failing to "promote diversity and equality" is a) even a real thing, b) a sackable offense and c) that "promoting diversity and equality" means "piss on the Christian but let the Sikh, Hindu and Muslim do wtf they like".. because time and again that is what it equates to.

And where have you seen evidence that this woman was anything other than a capable medical technician? Have you seen reports on her stating that her work was substandard? That people died under her care? Thats like saying you dont pay attention to your work becase you have a large beard... I think you will find she is perfectly capable of "focusing on her work" without being blinded by her religion....

FFS it took them three weeks to arrest Beverly Allit and she was KILLING people. Harold Shipman killed three people AFTER someone called doubt upon his medical ability. Is this woman supposed to be as bad as them, because that seems to be the general opinion.

Except that this woman is a competent practising nurse with zero record of "converting patients",zero record of offering holistic options, and zero record of doing anything other than her job, as people have done for hundreds of years. A quick prayer for someone causes NO HARM. Her views had NO EFFECT on the smooth operation of the NHS (f****n hah, the irony of that statement.)

I think the holocaust reference is more suitable when you add this to other examples of anti-christian bias in various places in the UK.. such as the flight attendant suspended for wearing a crucifix, an equally, if not more ludicrous application of "diversity" laws.

Macbeth, this is my last response to you. Clearly you deliberately misread my posts - I don't know why, perhaps for 'fun'. You clearly fail to understand the issue.
'congratulations, you have just made most of the world unemployable'...?
So, most of the worlds population now seeks to be exclusively employed in nursing...?
Make sense!
I will point you to LKL's post; namely, read the article!
Restricting people WHO CHOOSE certain sets of philosophies from enacting them/being employed in A CERTAIN FIELD! - is not some sort of neo-Nazi conspiracy!
Please, act mature and respect the nature of debate!
I call you fool not as insult, but practical application of dictionary term!
This is not a discussion on religion itself; but religions place within certain environments and fields of employment, as brought to evidence by the story of one staff member!
Keep your "western" opinions otherwise to yourself; what the devil do you believe the culture or Australia to be?! Bah! I cannot take you seriously.
Don't bother to respond, unless you can respect the purpose of a forum. I'll simply ignore you.
Good day, fool.

was there a risk of health and safety where the crucifix was involved? honestly speaking i can see why it could be a problem but don't see why someone can have a plain necklace and another not a crucifix, my brother has a chain with a gothic cross on it that looks like a darker version of the crucifix... would he be allowed to wear it as he's not christian?



if a christian or athiest joins the army they need to shave off their facial hair yet guess what? if your religion prohibits it you're allowed to keep your beard.
it's a crime for a christian or athiest to ride a motorcycle without a helmet but if you were a turban due to your religion you don't ned to wear a helmet.

society and government laws have already f**ked life up for christians as well as athiests by giving every easy way out to the minoritie which is a major reason why racism is still a major problem. christians are supposed to be good whereas other religions prohibit being nice to others outside tyhe religion to the extent of promoting the murder of non-believers... at the end of the day it's the 'nice guys (or religion) finnish last.

You insist that religious people be kept from certain jobs where you feel their religion is incompatible. Again.. this woman's religion had NO ADVERSE EFFECT ON ANYONE.. so why is her religion an issue in her job? It has brought to light nothing but the pig-headed obtusity of the NHS and the intrusive and self-defeating anality of "promoting diversity". This at a time when the service is in dire need of trained professionals...

YOU have had (apparently) a bad personal issue with religious types in medicine. Millions of people who happen to be religious carry out a multitude of jobs competently, and have done for a long long time. The practice of medicione, and Christianity, have a long relationship, which has generally been a very successful one. There are whole organisations who provide health-care that are run exclusively by Christians. St Johns Ambulance provide trained first-aid support for a multitude of public events in the UK, ranging from the Last Night of the Proms to the mud, sweat and acid of major rock festivals, for example. Should they all be removed from those events, where they are a valuable aid to the regular paramedical services, because they are generally religious? Because some of them might pray that nobody dies?

Where exactly is the harm and offence in wanting someone to get better? Why exactly is it so very f*****g rude and insulting to know that a stranger wishes you well? Why is it that someone who has already helped you competently, cared for you, and in no way shape or form harmed you can suddenly become a vilified and hated individual simply by what is meant as a kind gesture. It is no more than if she had said "i hope you get better."! It is meant with the same earnest desire for good health. It is NOT an insult. It is NOT an offensive statement.

You should read more carefully. I never said it was a Neo-Nazi conspiracy. I just think its monumentally f*****g rude, in the same vein that discriminating against a given group purely because of their religious affiliation is monumentally f*****g stupid. Especially when it is based on so little information, and so little real experience. That's like me claiming that Aussies should be barred from international forums because their all rude, obnoxious, ill-mannered and obviously incapable of polite conversation, based on my experience with just one.

Luckily, I know quite a few, and I know that they aren't all gobby windbags. Just like I know plenty of Christians who aren't psychotic god botherers hell-bent on starting another crusade.

The line between a professional's actual duties and his/her mention/discussion of religion needs to be clear. If that clarity cannot be guarunteed, it's in the best professional interest of the practitioner to avoid the religion topic.

That said, this is still a difficult and sensitive area in which to enforce hard-and-fast rules and regulations without error.

Last edited by Ragtime on 10 Feb 2009, 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well, DUH! Pushing her religion on others is part of her religious practices!

It takes about as much time to say, "Is there anything else I can do to help you feel better?" as it does to say, "Would you like for me to pray for you?" -- even more, if you go by word count.

Interference? Not at all.

Pointless? Well, I don't want to open that can of worms again!

If it doesn't disturb anyone, I don't see the big deal, heck I don't see what the big deal is anyway, if they only discussing religion, no harm... it's not like they where out preaching or anything.

There are some Jehovah's Witnesses in my work place, we work in a call center and I will sometimes see them reading their bible between calls. I don't see any harm in that, can't see how it would bug anyone.

Pushing? She offered to pray for an individual. I dont see any pushing. I see an OFFER, given in good faith (pardon the pun). At no point EVER have her abilities as a medical professional been called into doubt. I'm pretty sure if anyone had suffered under her care we would be hearing about it as conclusive proof that she was so busy praying that she neglected her patients needs. Except SHE DID NOT. Can we, for f***s sake, get this little piece of information safely established in this thread? This woman IS NOT A BAD NURSE and nobody has died or suffered from her (no doubt countless) prayers for the ill and the suffering.

Regardless of whether you or she believe that her prayers have had a positive effect for her patients, it is FACT that her prayers have not been in any way detrimental either. In fact, the more you believe they could have no positive effect, the more it confirms the lack of negative effect. If God does not exist to help, he does not exist to hinder either.

Onwards: if this woman really fervently believed that only prayers will help, to the point where she will pray rather than treat, she would not be a f*****g nurse, she would be a f*****g nun. And even nuns have beeb known to provide genuine medical care. In fact, people mostly resort to prayer as a final option, after all else has failed. Only extremists will use prayer to the EXCLUSION of everything else, and as mentioned, this nurse IS NOT an extremist.

And like Quakers in period of war, its not exactly hard to make sure that people with strong religious objections to certain things manage to not be confronted by such things. In fact, Quakers were often recruited as Medics and Hospital staff to avoid contradicting that belief. Heres how it works.. you ASK. Just like this poor bloody woman ASKED.

Finally: SHE OFFERED TO PRAY. She did not force, cajole, insist, threaten, beg or demand. She offered. Heres how that works:

"Would you like me to <insert action> for you?"
"Thats very kind of you, but no thankyou."

NOT:

"Would you like me to <insert action> for you?"
"FUCKSHIT NO GETAWAY FROM ME YOU MENTAL BEFORE YOU TURN ME INTO A NUTTER"

See? Couldnt be any clearer.

One person's kind offer is another person's aggressive "pushing."

Go figure.

Ungrateful f****r doesn't deserve divine intervention anyway. Its things like this that increase my desire to see Gods existence proved true. Burn in hell I might, for laughing at the misfortunes of others, but oh the sweet joy of seeing it happen, seeing these PC cretins queuing up at the pearly gates and seeing them all s**t it as they realise collectively what sort of morons they have been.

This sounds like reverse discrimination.

I don't take time out of my work day to make my beard grow.



Who said anything like that? Nobody with any sense, I'll promise you that. Why are we comparing her to murderers? She's just a jerk. It's not illegal, just annoying and potentially a problem if it interferes with her work. As such, her employers have every right to consider her behavior at work. And I do mean her behavior, not her beliefs.



A major tenant of my (non)religion is doing whatever I want. I guess since I should be allowed in all fairness to practice my (non)religion at work, that means I don't have to do my job.



That's very Christian of you. Really.

1) And AGAIN there is NO EVIDENCE that this nurse neglected her medical duties in ANY WAY. How many times do I have to write this before people actually take it on board? It is not a difficult concept. This nurse has not, does not, and is not "taking time off from work" to further her (apparently) evil christian ways. She HAS NOT neglected ANY of her medical duties.
2) The point is that you can KILL PEOPLE in the NHS and not be suspended immediately without pay. Same applies for a wealth of positions. Police officers under investigation for corruption, for example. Bankers accused of embezzlement. Is saying"would you like me to pray for you" a greater crime than murder now?
3) Annoying? Get the f**k over yourself. If you think that annoying you must be incredibly easy to piss right off. See all previous comments about good manners. And see point 1 about "behaviour"..
4)SHE WASN'T PUSHING ANYTHING!! ! She wasn't even practising her faith. She was asking permission to do so in her own time.
5) I never ever said I was Christian. I just happen to believe this woman has been treated incredibly unfairly by her employers, rudely by her patient, and with narrow-minded and panic-stricken bigotry by many posting here.

There is a grim lack of understanding of events here, which is perpetuating the misbegotten and erroneous belief that Nurse Petrie is some sort of tub-thumping priestess prophet, ranting her religion at all and sundry.