Another Suicide brought on by bullying....

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iMark
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26 Apr 2009, 2:36 pm

every one who has been bullied has been threatened by those bullies as well. but what makes some people fight back, others to endure it quietly, and still others to kill themselves over it?

i had a friend who killed himself after a girl dumped him and then humiliated him in public just because she could. a co-worker killed himself after getting laid off. i knew of a guy from school who killed himself after he was outted as gay. what causes these people to believe that suicide is the only way to deal with their problems?

i am sorry. call me a monster or whatever else pleases you but i simply do not understand why suicide could ever be an option except for maybe to escape from a terminal illness. maybe. i just do not understand.

starvingartist
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26 Apr 2009, 2:41 pm

iMark wrote:

because for some it is the only way they can see that will end their pain, and all they want is to end that pain--even if it means giving up their life to do so. that's why. you really have no right to judge someone who was so obviously suffering so much. it's callous. there are lots of people with suicidal ideation who don't seek help for the simple reason that they are afraid of being seen as weak, or of being judged by people like you. they would rather die than feel that judgment. maybe you should think on that a little.

TitusLucretiusCarus
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26 Apr 2009, 3:10 pm

^^QFT. In full agreement starvingartist.

I'm sorry the people/person you say you were a friend to committed suicide. I'm not sure belittling the reasons (what you perceive to be the reasons, unless you say otherwise I'm going to go ahead and assume you have so far been unable to ask them as to why) is particularly respectful to them. Do you mind if I ask how old you are, or what age group you would put yourself in?

Again I'd like to know what it is informs your thinking on this issue. What is it you do not feel you understand about suicide as a course of action? Hypothetically, if you could ask your friend why what kind of answers do you think you may get?
I have no intention of calling you a monster, it's an emotive word which is not conducive to open debate or freedom of speech. I do find what you've said...'problematic'... shall we say,

luchog
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27 Apr 2009, 6:12 pm

starvingartist wrote:

iMark wrote:

i am sorry. call me a monster or whatever else pleases you but i simply do not understand why suicide could ever be an option except for maybe to escape from a terminal illness. maybe. i just do not understand.

This is, to me, a gross oversimplification. The issue is far more complex than that. It's rarely only about "unendurable" pain, whether pyschological or physical.

In a large percentage of cases, the suicide attempt is a plea for attention, whether it's genuine hopelessness, or attempts at emotional manipulation. Very often in both attention-garnering and serious attempts, there is untreated or poorly treated mental illness involved. In fact, mental illness is the most significant motivator for suicide attempts.

starvingartist
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27 Apr 2009, 6:33 pm

luchog wrote:

starvingartist wrote:

iMark wrote:

i was trying to explain it to him in simple terms to help him understand, considering he mentioned he was having trouble doing just that. would you not say that someone with a mental illness, treated or otherwise, who was contemplating suicide was doing so because of the pain they were experiencing? i am speaking from personal experience. are you?

oscuria
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28 Apr 2009, 2:56 am

when i was at that age i never, at least from what i can recall, thought about committing suicide.

i did think about getting back at the people, but suicide? at age 11? something just doesnt seem right.

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sbcmetroguy
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28 Apr 2009, 11:57 am

oscuria wrote:

I'm not sure how old you are, but the world we live in is changing daily and kids are committing sucide, murder, etc and doing other things younger and younger. When I was in middle school one of my classmates committed suicide, and that was over 15 years ago. He was either 11 or 12, considering that we were in middle school. The world is changing right before us, and kids are different than they were in the past. Suicide seems more common among children... who knows why, but it does appear to be the case.

I do believe that at that age the thought of suicide crossed my mind a few times.

luchog
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29 Apr 2009, 12:02 am

starvingartist wrote:

Only if you define "pain" so broadly that it becomes meaningless. As I noted, some suicide attempts are manipulative, emotional blackmail.

Quote:

i am speaking from personal experience. are you?

Yes. And much more importantly, I'm speaking from a good layman's understanding of the medical literature on the subject.

luchog
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29 Apr 2009, 12:09 am

sbcmetroguy wrote:

Golden Age fallacy. There's no indication that this phenomenon of childhood suicidal ideation or violence is significantly more common currently than at any point in history; and plenty of historical data to suggest otherwise. The only difference is that reporting of incidents is far more common due to advances in communication speed and ubiquity; especially since the advent of the Internet as a significant channel of communication.

starvingartist
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29 Apr 2009, 12:33 am

luchog wrote:

sbcmetroguy wrote:

i'm sorry but i find it hard to believe that an 11 yr old boy would hang himself to "emotionally manipulate" people, or to "seek attention", as you say.

but i'm sure your cold analytical way of approaching this subject would be extremely helpful in reaching out to these children who are victims, and are so obviously suffering.

crawl back under the rock from whence you came. insensitivity is not helpful here. when is it ever helpful, really?

starvingartist
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29 Apr 2009, 12:36 am

luchog wrote:

starvingartist wrote:

Only if you define "pain" so broadly that it becomes meaningless. As I noted, some suicide attempts are manipulative, emotional blackmail.

Quote:

i am speaking from personal experience. are you?

Yes. And much more importantly, I'm speaking from a good layman's understanding of the medical literature on the subject.

and btw, i'm speaking from an understanding not just of personal experience, but also from my formal education that goes beyond the "layman's understanding" of the literature. your understanding of the issue of suicide seems pretty limited to me.

starvingartist
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29 Apr 2009, 12:40 am

luchog wrote:

starvingartist wrote:

Only if you define "pain" so broadly that it becomes meaningless. As I noted, some suicide attempts are manipulative, emotional blackmail.

Quote:

i am speaking from personal experience. are you?

Yes. And much more importantly, I'm speaking from a good layman's understanding of the medical literature on the subject.

and also, the pain that i experience, when i am suffering from suicidal ideation due to my mental illness (i'm not speaking of aspergers here), is very real, however broadly you want to define it. it is all encompassing. that makes it far from meaningless to me. and i'm sure that boy's pain was far from meaningless to him, however you choose to define it.

marshall
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29 Apr 2009, 1:27 am

luchog wrote:

This is, to me, a gross oversimplification. The issue is far more complex than that. It's rarely only about "unendurable" pain, whether pyschological or physical

In a large percentage of cases, the suicide attempt is a plea for attention, whether it's genuine hopelessness, or attempts at emotional manipulation. Very often in both attention-garnering and serious attempts, there is untreated or poorly treated mental illness involved. In fact, mental illness is the most significant motivator for suicide attempts.

I think this is just mincing words. If a person is willing to attempt suicide, even if it is a plea for attention (help?), then they're in enough pain to make it feel as though they would have little to lose if they succeeded in taking their own life. I think it's wrong to categorize the majority of suicide attempts as spur-of-the-moment rash decisions due to poor judgment from mental illness. That trivializes the serious level of unpleasantness suicide victims endure, often for extended periods of time, before finally deciding to end their life.

TitusLucretiusCarus
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29 Apr 2009, 12:04 pm

Quote:

QFT. Well said starvingartist.

luchog
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30 Apr 2009, 9:56 pm

starvingartist wrote:

i'm sorry but i find it hard to believe that an 11 yr old boy would hang himself to "emotionally manipulate" people, or to "seek attention", as you say.

Then perhaps you should spend some time studying the medical literature, so you know what you're talking about. It's far from uncommon.

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