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EzraS
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27 Mar 2020, 9:05 am

The numbers are looking better in New York.

38,977 cases

466 deaths.

That brings it down to about a 1.2% death rate.



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27 Mar 2020, 9:13 am

CDC underestimated threat from coronavirus, botched response: report

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The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention underestimated the threat from the emerging outbreak of the coronavirus in the US — and bungled its communication to local public health agencies about what actions to take, according to a report.

ProPublica obtained hundreds of pages of documents that it said painted a picture of chaos at the country’s leading national public health agency that slowed the early response to the deadly illness.

On Feb. 13, the CDC sent out an email with what the writer described as an “URGENT” appeal for assistance as the agency was struggling to keep track of people suspected of being infected, the nonprofit news outlet reported.

“Help needed urgently,” the missive said amid “an ongoing issue” with organizing — and at times even misplacing — material sent by local agencies about Americans believed to be infected.

In a bid to correct the botched efforts, the CDC listed job postings for candidates who could track down the missing paperwork, according to ProPublica, which obtained the trove of documents between federal and state officials through a records request in Nevada.

By the time the jobs posting went out, there were already 15 confirmed cases of COVID-19 in the US — two weeks before the first case of community transmission was reported in California.

In a sign of the CDC’s state of confusion, ProPublica cited documents that show the agency informed Nevada about 80 possible coronavirus patients to monitor — though four of them lived in New York, not Nevada.

When a state epidemiologist informed the CDC about the blunder, it redirected the errant reports to the Empire State, according to the documents.

In another instance, a Nevada health official asked the CDC about congressional funding to fight the disease.

“There seems to be a communications blackout on this end,” wrote the program manager, who wondered how the money would be allocated.

A CDC staffer apologized for the lack of information.

“Unfortunately, there is no clear answer to your questions,” the staffer wrote. “We are hearing all of the rumor mills as well.”

“Thank you,” the Nevada official replied. “It’s good to be confused together.”

During February, the CDC also imposed a strict limit on who should be tested for the illness — a strategy that epidemiologists have assailed as limiting the ability to track its spread.

The CDC told state officials on Feb. 19 that those to be tested had to have had close contact with someone confirmed to be infected, or to have traveled from China and then had simultaneous respiratory symptoms and a fever.

But in January, the agency had informed the states that “fever may not be present in some patients,” according to a document obtained by ProPublica.

In a statement to the news site, the CDC said health professionals could always use their judgment to decide who should be tested.

“CDC never declined a request for testing that came from a state or local health department,” the agency said.

The CDC also instructed states to use the web platform DCIPHER to report potential and confirmed cases – but it wasn’t until the following week that it scheduled a training on how to use the platform, documents show.

ProPublica also described the CDC’s bumpy efforts to screen passengers arriving from China at the Los Angeles International Airport using a buggy questionnaire.

Among the glitches was a drop-down menu that auto-populated with “United Kingdom” instead of “United States,” forcing travelers to type “United States of America.”

On Feb. 29, a CDC officer at the LA airport also sent an email to her colleagues, saying: “In case this comes up again, we are not screening private flights. These would be flights that land at LAX but don’t arrive into the regular terminal … mainly for rich people.”

But she changed her tune a couple of hours later, writing: “And, maybe just kidding.”

The CDC told ProPublica that it focused on vetting the largest segment possible of high-risk fliers arriving from places like the Chinese epicenter city of Wuhan.

The CDC chief, Dr. Robert Redfield, also sounded confident in his communications with others in the agency, ProPublica reported.

In a message he sent on Jan. 28, when the CDC had confirmed five cases of the coronavirus, he acknowledged the coronavirus posed “a very serious public health threat.”

But he the assured them “the virus is not spreading in the U.S. at this time,” though that may not have been true, according to the report.

Trevor Bedford, an epidemiologist Seattle, has said he believed the virus could have begun circulating in Washington state immediately after a traveler arrived in mid-January.

The CDC told ProPublica that Redfield’s comments were based on the data available at the time.

“At no time, did he underestimate the potential for COVID-19 becoming a global pandemic,” the agency said. “He stated consistently that more cases, including person to person spread, were likely.”


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27 Mar 2020, 9:46 am

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This is a poster from Chicago in the 1918 Pandemic.

I was reading an article this morning which linked to another article and I thought the other article was interesting and worth a read:

10 misconceptions about the 1918 flu, the ‘greatest pandemic in history’

I remember years ago I went to the library at the states historical society and read a few books on the subject of the 1918 pandemic. Sometimes it is fruitful to look at historical accounts. Sometimes they are an image projected in a mirror the present. The 1918 Flu Pandemic actually had two waves.

The First Wave: Spring 1918
One day in the spring of 1918, soldiers at Fort Riley, Kansas, burned tons of horse manure. A choking dust storm kicked up and swept over the prairie. The sky went black and all the soldiers at Fort Riley ran for cover. The storm raged for hours, then suddenly it stopped. Fort Riley was covered with a dense shroud of dirt and ash. The soldiers were ordered to clean up the mess. They worked long past midnight, sweeping, raking, shoveling, and coughing.

On Monday March 11, 1918 - two days after the dust storm - Private Albert Gitchell, a cook, reported to the camp hospital before breakfast. He had a fever, sore throat, and headache. The symptoms indicated just a normal flu, however by noon that same day the hospital had 107 cases reported. Within the next month, the hospital saw well over a thousand.

Many soldiers perished from influenza that spring. The cause of death was recorded as pneumonia in every case. The symptoms were highly unusual, including labored breathing, violent coughs, and projectile nosebleeds. Faces would turn an ashen blue. They often had high fevers, and their bodily functions were depressed. Autopsies revealed widespread bloody hemorrhage and swelling of the lungs. Patients literally suffocated from their bloody, fluid-filled lungs. Young, healthy men became sick and died within a matter of days, sometimes only hours. The people who influenza usually spared were dying of this flu.

Colonel Schreiner found evidence of Haemophilus influenzae, Pfeiffer's bacillus, in cultures taken from his patients. Pfeiffer's bacillus is the hemophilic bacterium widely believed to be the cause of influenza. Cultures also revealed a multitude of other bacteria. He could not figure out whether Pfeiffer's bacillus caused the deadly flu, or whether it was a mere incidental discovery.

Then the dying ended. Most of the sick got better. Fort Riley's outbreak of the flu ceased, disappearing just as mysteriously as it had come.

By April, influenza, following the path of soldiers gathering and moving all through the nation, had spread to most cities in America. But this spring wave passed nearly unnoticed. It barely affected America's mortality rates. In the nation as a whole, no one gave these little spates of death another thought.

In mid-April 1918, all across Europe, soldiers and civilians were coming down with an unusually ferocious flu. The earliest reports had come among the American Expeditionary Force arriving at the French port of Bordeaux. Every nation gave it a different name. Americans said that it was the "three day fever", the French called it "la grippe", the Germans, "Flanders Fever" or Blitzkatarrh", and the Italians, "sandfly fever". Spain was hit worse of all. Eight million people in Spain became ill, including King Alfonso XIII.

By February, influenza had affected San Sebastian, a seaside town on the northern coast of Spain. Town officials became worried about a decline in summer tourism and tried to suppress the news of the outbreak. However as spring arrived, influenza spread through Spain and King Alfonso's illness and the outbreak in San Sebastian made headlines in the newspapers. Europeans started calling the illness Spanish influenza.

This strain was even worse, the pain began behind the eyes, spread to the ears, the neck, the spine, and the legs. A soaring fever, chills, and delirium made for an excruciating calamity. In some cases, after a few days the illness began to dwindle. But other patients developed extensive pneumonia and death came promptly.

In Europe, the trams stopped operating and businesses and government offices shut down. The flu even began changing the schedules of war. For a number of days in May, the British Grand Fleet remained docked because a numerous amount of the British soldiers were sick. The commander of the German forces, General Erich von Ludendorff, blamed the failure of Germany's July offense on the diminished strength and confidence of his troops, due, in part, to influenza.

Beginning in July, flu surged through the European civilian population. Europe was withstanding its fifth year of war and food, clothing, soap, coal, and other essentials were in short supply or unattainable. In cities already depleted of young, draft-age men, nearly half of those who died were between the ages of twenty and forty-five.

The virus then spread across the world infecting countries such as Greece, Egypt, West Africa, Russia, India, China, Japan, and South America. In a couple of months, the microbe had rounded the globe. However during this summer it was oddly not present in the United States. America was statistically healthier than it had ever been.


The Second Wave: Summer 1918
In late summer, probably in Brest, France, the virus mutated. In the last week of August, a ferociously fatal Spanish influenza appeared in the three port cities of Brest, France; Freetown, Sierra Leone; and Boston, Massachusetts. The virus had now returned to the Unites States in its most virulent form.

In the United States, the virus first struck Boston's Commonwealth Pier, a crowded Navy barracks. Within a week, over a hundred sailors were ill. Patients were transferred to Chelsea Naval Hospital where they infected the physicians who admitted them. On September 3, the first civilian casualty of Spanish influenza was admitted to Boston City Hospital. Still, no one of importance seemed to notice that a horribly contagious disease was on the loose.

Next the virus moved to Camp Devens in Massachusetts. Camp Devens was located approximately 30 miles from Boston. It was severely overcrowded, containing 45,000 men in an encampment built for 35,000.

The first victim from Devens was a soldier of Company B, 42nd Infantry. He went on sick call on September the 7th and was first diagnosed with cerebrospinal meningitis. The doctors believed that the abruptness of the onset and the degree of the disease were far too extreme to be influenza. The next day more than a dozen men of Company B showed up at the hospital with the same disease. It was also spreading to other companies and regiments.

The symptoms were confusing. The fever, headache, prostration, and abruptness of onset indicated meningitis, but the cough, drippy nose, and sore throat suggested a disease of the upper respiratory tract. In addition, the men also complained of aching backs and legs. On September 12 it was finally diagnosed as influenza. However, this flu had the capacity for pneumonic complications.

On September 13, Rupert Blue, the Surgeon General of the United States, suggested the Armed Forces immediately halt shipment of sick soldiers or those exposed to the virus and quickly remove healthy troops from infected zones. But Blue had little actual authority. He could only advise, warn, cajole, and entreat. He could not force cooperation; he could only ask for it. Movement of troops continued.

In mid September, Blue dispatched Colonel Victor Vaughan, a distinguished epidemiologist, and Dr. William Henry Welch, the renowned dean of American medicine, to Devens to investigate the illness. Dr. Rufus Cole also accompanied Welch. By the time that they arrived on September 23, 12,604 cases of Spanish flu had been reported. The spread of pneumonia was accelerating. The patients would often turn purple and blue, indicating lung failure.

Devens hospital was a maze of dozens of wooden buildings connected by miles of corridors. It normally accommodated approximately 2,000 people, but it now was holding over 8,000. The wards overflowed into porches. Some victims collapsed outside in the rain, waiting to be admitted. Wooden, drafty barracks were commandeered to serve supplemental hospitals. In ward after ward, ashen-faced soldiers lay on bloody sheets, delirious and dying.

Image

Since no medical techniques or antibiotics existed to cure the flu or pneumonia, nurses proved to be more important than doctors. Nurses did all that could be done to help the patients. They gave them warm food, warm blankets, fresh air, and loving care. At one time 90 of the 300 regular nurses were sick.

The conditions in the morgue were chaotic. Almost a hundred would die in a day. Slate-colored bodies were stacked or lying about the morgue floor in confusion. When Dr. Welch opened the body of a cadaver, he found blue swollen lungs. The lungs were filled with thin bloody frothy liquid. Autopsies of patients who died within forty-eight hours after onset of the disease revealed heavy, swollen bloody lungs which, incredibly, sank in water.

Welch recommended to General McCain on September 25, that no more troops be ordered to Devens or dispatched to other camps from Devens. He also suggested that the number of troops should be reduced by more than 10,000. General McCain, however, ignored the suggestions.

From Boston, the flu pushed westward, following the railroads. From the Northeastern seaboard, it traveled to the cities of the Midwest, then the Far West. Crowded army camps, with traffic back and forth from flu-ridden Europe, became home bases for the plague.

From all over the world, reports were coming in of weird sinister complications. Influenza patients were developing cataracts, vertigo, enlarged spleens, and gangrene of the sexual organs. Purple blisters emerged on blue, oxygen-starved skin.

As the epidemic spread, influenza was variously diagnosed as chlorine gas poisoning, Asiatic cholera, scarlet fever, typhoid, food poisoning, and appendicitis. The doctors didn't know how to classify the disease.

Obliviousness of the disease prevailed all over the country. In late September, huge bond and Liberty Loans drives drew hundreds of thousands, sick and well, into America's streets. Hoards gathered in Chicago, San Francisco, and Philadelphia.

America was not alone in its blindness. In 1918, no nation on Earth had influenza as a reportable disease. Many countries lacked even a central Department of Health. As in America, the early advice of Britain's medical experts were lost amidst the drama and urgency of war. On August 19, Britain's Medical Research Council, tracking influenza's spring wave through Europe, had predicted a second, deadlier epidemic in the fall. The Council's eager call for research and collaboration among bacteriologists went largely unnoticed.

In the state of Massachusetts, some fifty thousand citizens were morbidly ill with influenza. Massachusetts' chief Health Officer wired Surgeon General Blue for help. Massachusetts Governor Calvin Coolidge sent pleas to President Woodrow Wilson, the Mayor of Toronto, and the governors or Vermont, Maine, and Rhode Island. On September 19, Massachusetts organized a State Emergency Health Committee. Liberty Loan parades were postponed. The Stock Exchange reduced its hours. Theaters closed. Athletic events were canceled. Sunday, September 22 was proclaimed a churchless Sunday.

For the sick, Blue advised bed rest, good food, aspirin, and salts of quinine. He recommended that people nursing the sick wear surgical masks, gauzy masks which covered the nose and mouth. Soon laymen and officials across the nation decided that what was sensible in the sickroom was just as sensible everywhere. Sale of facemasks increased dramatically. Masks became a common sight on America's streets, worn by policemen, socialites, barbers, and newlyweds. On October 4, Blue asked authorities to close all public gathering places if the community was threatened with the epidemic.

Everyone looked for answers as to what was causing the bewildering disease. Many thought the Germans were behind the outbreak. Lieutenant Colonel Philip S. Doane, chief of the Health and Sanitation Section of the Emergency Fleet Corporation, suggested that America had become infected with germs spread by Germans put ashore from the U-boats.

Others thought that the epidemic was caused by sin. Evangelist Billy Sunday preached to a crowds that sin was the cause, and prayer the answer. But even as he spoke, members of his audience collapsed with flu and were carried from the hall. Jehovah's witnesses considered the epidemic the realization of Jesus’ prophesies on the Mount of Olives, the predicted time of pestilence and sorrows. Some thought that if sin were the cause then Christians would be spared. They felt that Spanish influenza was a lower class disease.

New York's Dr. Gedide Friendman accused bed bugs of causing the disease. J. Blaustein of Springfield, Massachusetts, reasoned that the epidemic had come from fish swimming in poisoned, U-boat infested waters.

As influenza engulfed America's cities, its spread was provoked not only by overcrowding and poor hygiene, but also by confusion. Language barriers and ethnic differences created distrust, puzzlement, and chaotic misunderstanding. Efforts were made to try and help this situation. Cities published circulars in a variety of languages. It still didn't help. Once when a vessel docked in New York City, sick Chinese sailors were removed to the Municipal Lodging House. Terrified by the white-masked, white-robed Americans, the Chinese refused to take off their clothes for fear of being robbed. They refused to eat; believing the food was poisoned. In the end, almost all of them died. At Camp Wheeler in Macon, Georgia, black recruits arriving at the railway station ran and hid, believing the masked medical orderlies at the platform were Ku Klux Klansmen.

Advice was offered by many as to how to stop the plague. Dr. Charles E. Page believed that only nakedness could repulse the flu. His theory was that influenza was caused by excessive clothing on an animal that is by nature naked. He said that the skin is a true breathing organ. Under clothes the skin is practically smothered and the blood is deprived of much needed oxygen.

joseph Peloquin of Leavenworth, Kansas, suggested rinsing the mouth with limewater, then inhaling hot water and turpentine. Fondling sacred pebbles from a shrine in Kyoshu, Japan could supposedly also cure influenza. North Carolinians sprinkled sulfur in their shoes, tied sliced fresh cucumbers to their ankles, and carried a potato in each pocket. Others chose to wear necklaces of chicken feathers. Camp Sherman in Ohio was overwhelmed with telegrams suggesting that shotguns placed beneath sickbeds would draw out the fever because of the magnetism of the metal. Still nothing seemed to help.

Experiments
I think the thing that attracted my attention the most in the book was the experiments that were done by Dr. Joseph Goldberger.

Most scientists believed that they knew the cause of influenza. They believed that the culprit was Pfeiffer’s bacillus, a rod-shaped bacterium. However, they still didn’t know as to why their vaccines were failing to stop it. In laboratories all over the world, medical researchers were making vaccines, which contained many bacterial agents including staphylococcus, streptococcus, pneumococcus, and many others. All the vaccines featured Pfeiffer’s bacillus. However, all the vaccines were proven useless.

In October, Dr. Joseph Goldberger, an U.S. Public Health Service researcher, decided to start a special program. He asked for volunteers from convicts at a naval prison in Massachusetts. If the prisoners completed the program, they would be pardoned of their crimes. Volunteers surprisingly came forward. They were about to be injected with Spanish influenza.

Goldberger’s goal was to prove that Pfeiffer’s bacillus caused Spanish influenza. The convicts were quarantines on Gallups Island in Boston Harbor. Each man inhaled a pure culture of Pfeiffer’s bacillus. Each was then inoculated with blood from flu patients. Nothing happened. No volunteer got sick. Goldberger then sprayed the convicts’ nostrils and eyes and swabbed their throats with broths of pure Pfeiffer’s bacillus. Again there was no result. Goldberger was baffled. He sent the volunteers to the influenza wards of Chelsea Naval Hospital. Each convict shook hands, talked with, and sat beside flu victims. They even leaned up close and let dying patients cough in their faces. Still, no volunteers got sick. None of Goldberger’s volunteers got sick. However, one of Goldberger’’ colleagues, the doctor who ran the quarantine station, caught influenza and died.

And I thought to myself, he actually found a cure for the Spanish flu and didn't even realize it.

So what was the name of that book again? Gee I don't remember. It might be Alfred Crosby, America’s Forgotten Pandemic (New York: Cambridge University Press, 1989, or maybe something else. Anyways it was an interesting book to read sitting alone in an empty library at the States historical society.


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Last edited by jimmy m on 27 Mar 2020, 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Karamazov
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27 Mar 2020, 9:48 am

EzraS wrote:
I don't see the BBC covering it yet.

The Guardian is a joke.


At least our government isn’t headed by a joke.

It’s headed by a sick joke. :mrgreen:



jimmy m
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27 Mar 2020, 10:13 am

Karamazov wrote:
EzraS wrote:
I don't see the BBC covering it yet.

The Guardian is a joke.


At least our government isn’t headed by a joke.

It’s headed by a sick joke. :mrgreen:


Let's leave politics out of this discussion. Please place it in a thread in the PPR forum section.


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27 Mar 2020, 11:05 am

Watching Cuomo on CNN now giving medical staff encouragement.


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27 Mar 2020, 11:20 am

jimmy m wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
EzraS wrote:
I don't see the BBC covering it yet.

The Guardian is a joke.


At least our government isn’t headed by a joke.

It’s headed by a sick joke. :mrgreen:


Let's leave politics out of this discussion. Please place it in a thread in the PPR forum section.


Sorry jimmy, got carried away by the sound of my own thoughts :oops:



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27 Mar 2020, 11:34 am

Now....that was an interesting and disturbing read......



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27 Mar 2020, 11:51 am

Considering how quickly the total cases in the USA surged pass the reported cases in China. I am willing to bet China was not being honest about the number of cases. If they would have many other counties would have likely taken it serious sooner.


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27 Mar 2020, 12:14 pm

There is an article about the usability of old N95's today. Generally I think these mask are not like food with expiration dates. Most are usable. I had a box of 10 N95s stored in a high humidity environment for around 10 years, so they were very mildewed. But I reconditioned them in the following manner. I added a few drops of tea tree oil and sealed them in a plastic bag for a few days. Then I took them out of the bag and subjected them to the fresh air and sunlight to disinfect them. No more mildew. And I have been using them and feel safe using them.

This is the article:

The U.S. Customs and Border Protection agency is expected to send the Transportation Security Administration a "large quantity" of N95 respirator masks, TSA confirmed to Fox News.

Once the shipment arrives, TSA will distribute them to airports, as needed.

ccording to reports, a stockpile of 1.5 million expired masks will be sent out – a decision made by officials with the Department of Homeland Security on Wednesday, sources told The Washington Post. A spokesperson for the CBP was not immediately available to confirm the number of masks TSA would receive, or when they were being shipped.

Nathan Peeters, a CBP spokesman, told the Post the agency has been “working with our DHS partners to determine the best use for N95 respirators in CBP’s emergency stockpile.”

Image

While the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention does not recommend using N95 respirator masks past the manufacturer’s expiration date, the agency has recently made concessions based on demand because of the coronavirus pandemic.

As long as the masks have been stored correctly, the CDC and the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health have concluded from a study that “many models have continued to perform in accordance with NIOSH performance standards.”

“This preliminary information from the NIOSH study suggests certain N95 models beyond their manufacturer-designated shelf life will be protective,” a summary of the study stated, as long as the “stockpile conditions have generally been in accordance with the manufacturer-recommended storage conditions and an OSHA-compliant respiratory protection program is used by employers.”

Source: TSA to receive 'large quantity' of expired N95 respirator masks from US Customs and Border Protection


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27 Mar 2020, 12:32 pm

not sure if this has been posted or how effective it is.

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Luckily, it is possible to make your own respirator. The key is using a HEPA vacuum cleaner bag as a filter.


https://www.primalsurvivor.net/homemade-n95-respirator-mask/?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Homemade+N95+Respirator+Mask+Instructions+%28Using+HEPA+Vacuum+Bag%29&utm_campaign=Homemade+N95+Respirator+Mask+Instructions+%28Using+HEPA+Vacuum+Bag%29

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HEPA vacuum bags have fiberglass threads inside of them. The fibers are large so aren’t dangerous like fiberglass dust. However, you could still breathe them in, which could cause airway irritation
8O



Last edited by Sahn on 27 Mar 2020, 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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27 Mar 2020, 12:34 pm

Brehus wrote:
Considering how quickly the total cases in the USA surged pass the reported cases in China. I am willing to bet China was not being honest about the number of cases. If they would have many other counties would have likely taken it serious sooner.


I have zero doubt about China being dishonest with its reporting of the number of cases of the virus within the country.



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27 Mar 2020, 12:43 pm

Another article caught my attention:

More than 300 people have died and a further 1,000 have fallen ill in Iran after consuming methanol in the belief that it will protect them against the coronavirus, according to local media.

Fake remedies have spread across Iranian social media, with methanol simply the latest supposed cure. As an Islamic nation, the consumption of alcohol is banned, but bootleggers have distributed industrial alcohol.

“Other countries have only one problem, which is the new coronavirus pandemic,” said Dr. Hossein Hassanian, an adviser to Iran’s Health Ministry who claimed that the problem could be more severe than reported. “We have to both cure the people with the alcohol poisoning and also fight the coronavirus.”

The government downplayed the crisis ahead of a parliamentary election, leaving the Iranian people with little trust in their lawmakers.

“Unfortunately in some provinces, including Khuzestan and Fars, deaths from drinking methanol has exceeded the number of deaths by the new coronavirus,” Hassanian said.

Iranian social media accounts falsely suggested a British school teacher and others cured themselves of the coronavirus with whisky and honey. Due to reports on the effectiveness of hand sanitizer in combating coronavirus, many started to consume industrial alcohol such as methanol in the belief it would protect them.

Source: Hundreds dead in Iran after consuming methanol thinking it was coronavirus protection

Would someone get the word out to the Iranians that drinking methanol is not a cure, it is death.

First off this is not a protection, it doesn't protect you but drinking a "Hot Toddy" at the appropriate time may help with your recovery. What is that time? IMHO it is when your throat is so raw it feels like sandpaper. This is one of the old world remedies. One uses one type of alcohol in hand sanitizers to destroy the virus on the hands and another type of alcohol (whiskey) to reduce the number of viruses in the throat. But if you want to experiment with this old world remedy please make sure you use the right kind of alcohol. And it doesn't take much of it. Maybe an 1/8 if a cup and let it trickle down your throat. Definitely not enough to get drunk. If you don't have a bartender to make you one of these, probably the easiest way it to pour a small amount of a honey liquor into a glass, then add a little honey, then microwave for about 15 seconds. What is a honey liquor? Here is a list of a few: Drambuie, Irish Mist, Krupnik. There are many more available. Just need to use the right stuff.


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27 Mar 2020, 12:44 pm

jimmy_m wrote:
.... Spanish Influenza Pandemic 1918 ....

Awesome, fascinating read, thank you! :)



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27 Mar 2020, 12:48 pm

Good to watch.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperi ... influenza/


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27 Mar 2020, 12:50 pm

This will help soothe our worried minds.
https://www.comicsands.com/sir-patrick- ... tent=intro


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