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TheRobotLives
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16 Nov 2021, 8:32 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Yeah, poor unarmed Rosenbaum, who was literally fresh out of the mental hospital after a suicide attempt, who goaded multiple people to shoot him that night, had a long history of violence, and was shot in the act of chasing down Rittenhouse and trying to yank his rifle away.

It's not that simple.

The defense had to show that Rittenhouse's life was in immediate danger.

"Yanking of rifle" did not put Rittenhouse's life in danger, so deadly force was not appropriate.

So, the defense had to further argue a slippery slope, that the yanking would lead to Rosenbaum taking the rifle, which would further lead to Rosenbaum using the rifle to shoot Rittenhouse.


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16 Nov 2021, 8:33 pm

Personally while I feel Rittenhouse deserves a prison sentence it's incredibly creepy to hear grown-ass men joking about a teenager getting raped in prison. It kinda diminishes any credibility they might possess when commenting on topics related to sexual assault in the future.

Rape is bad mkay, well unless you're a criminal then you deserve it.


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16 Nov 2021, 8:37 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The only time the defendant showed any alleged remorse was on the witness stand.  Even then, it was for only a short time.  Once outside the courthouse, he was seen (and recorded) partying with his "Proud Boys" friends.


Has he given many interviews, or otherwise communicated outside of the courtroom? IIRC he's been in hiding for most of the time since being bailed out, and that photo of him at the bar was taken almost immediately after he was bailed out after several months in jail, so you'd expect him to be pretty happy about that, especially as the people he was with had helped to arrange the bail. As a person awaiting trial for murder, it was in his interest to maintain silence, as anything he said could have been used against him, including any statement of remorse, as a prosecutor could easily twist them into an admission of guilt. This is very basic legal stuff.

Fnord wrote:
Rittenhouse was being a "chaos tourist" when he traveled to Kenosha, Wisconsin from his hometown of Antioch, Illinois, in order to initiate violence -- he was the only person to shoot anyone during the protests.


You mean the town where his father and other relatives lived, where he worked as a lifeguard, and where he spent the afternoon cleaning up the mess left by previous nights of rioting? Yeah, he had no connection to that place at all, it was completely ridiculous of him to be upset that it was being burned down night after night while the police stood by and watched. If he was there to initiate violence, he also did a very poor job of it, yelling "friendly! friendly! friendly!" as he rushed around with his med kit, and running from pursuit until literally cornered before resorting to force in all three shootings.

Fnord wrote:
He fired four shots to kill Joseph Rosenbaum, who was unarmed; the first shot fractured Rosenbaum's pelvis, after which he would have been no threat to Rittenhouse at all.  Obviously, he shot Rosenbaum three more times with the intent to kill, and showed no remorse for the cold-blooded murder of Joseph Rosenbaum.


Yeah, poor unarmed Rosenbaum, who was literally fresh out of the mental hospital after a suicide attempt, who goaded multiple people to shoot him that night, had a long history of violence, and was shot in the act of chasing down Rittenhouse and trying to yank his rifle away. Amazing how you claim to know what someone's intent was who you've never met when you weren't there at the time, especially when both the video and the witness testimony confirms that all four shots were fired in less than 1 second, consistent with a self defense shooting to stop the threat, not your claim of a shot to neutralize and then three more to execute. IIRC, you're normally Mr law and order when the cops shoot someone, and they don't shoot once, pause to assess, than shoot again as necessary, they shoot until the threat is neutralized, which is exactly what occurred here. As a final aside, you don't seem to know what cold blooded means in either the legal or moral sense, as even if your argument had merit, which it does not, it would be a hot blooded murder in that it occurred in the heat of the moment, Rittenhouse did not plan out the shooting of Rosenbaum, lie in wait for him, or otherwise attack him with the proverbial cold blood required for that term to attach.

Fnord wrote:
Kyle "Crocodile Tears" Rittenhouse cannot claim self-defense against the alleged danger he created.  He was threatening and provoking others, and should forfeit any right to claim self-defense.


You've got at least 3 untruths in 2 sentences there, as he absolutely can claim self defense, in fact he could even claim it if he started things due to the fact that he was actively fleeing at the time of the shootings, but there is also no evidence of any threats or provocations coming from Rittenhouse (as opposed to Rosenbaum in particular), and he most certainly didn't create the danger, as that riot was happening whether he was there or not.

Aren't you the "evidence, please?" guy, who grills other members when they can't support what they say to your satisfaction (although you've gotten rather selective about that), the same person who boasts unironically of being a perfectly logical genius? And yet here you are making multiple unsupported assertions, misstating the law and the facts as shown by video, and claiming to know what's in the minds of others (when you're not making creepy prison rape reference)? Not a good showing, that's for sure.


OUCH! 8O :mrgreen:



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16 Nov 2021, 8:43 pm

Brictoria wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
  If they ignore the staged emotionalism of the defendant, then he is likely to be screaming into his pillow before the end of the year.


What is it with you people and the prison rape fixation?


Have you noticed how these comments tend to come from those who favor "mob justice" over the "rule of law"?


I am not comfortable joining in on a "pile-on" (it is more than a little ironic, after all), but this point needs to be seriously addressed.
The mindless group-hate needs to stop. <stamp foot> :mrgreen:



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16 Nov 2021, 8:45 pm

Pepe wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Was Rittenhouse using an automatic rifle?
If so, was it set on "automatic" or single shot?


No, fully automatic rifles are heavily regulated here, they typically cost tens of thousands of dollars and require a federal background check including photos and fingerprints, that takes close to a year to complete. He had a bog standard AR15, a Smith and Wesson M&P, which is a basic entry level rifle that can be bought over the counter with a background check, which is semi automatic, one bullet per trigger pull. People don't seem to realize how quickly it's possible to shoot, guys who do competitive shooting aim for .10 seconds between shots, or 10 shots per second, it's not hard to achieve with a halfway decent trigger.


Then, consciously shooting someone 4 *separate* times is rather excessive, I would have thought.
But even professionals, such as police, do this, also.

the 4 times were over around .75 of a second from first to last shot, meaning there wasn't a huge amount of time involved in making the decision and it was more of a reflexive act following the first shot.



TheRobotLives
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16 Nov 2021, 8:48 pm

Brictoria wrote:
Current rumours suggest a mis-trial could be likely - There are 2 jurors supposedly holding out, due to fear of backlash which could result from verdict.

The judge makes each juror stand and confirm his/her verdict.

Later, the juror's names are released.

So, who you are, and what your decision was becomes public knowledge.

The judge is presently getting death threats.


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16 Nov 2021, 8:52 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
It's not that simple.

The defense had to show that Rittenhouse's life was in immediate danger.

"Yanking of rifle" did not put Rittenhouse's life in danger, so deadly force was not appropriate.

So, the defense had to further argue a slippery slope, that the yanking would lead to Rosenbaum taking the rifle, which would further lead to Rosenbaum using the rifle to shoot Rittenhouse.


If I'm walking down the street with a holstered pistol, and someone comes up to me and tries to yank it out of my holster, I can and will legally shoot them, and the same applies to a slung rifle. It's a very simple chain of reasoning, someone attempting to disarm me means to do me harm, therefore I can use force to prevent it, and as they're attempting to gain control of my weapon, I'm allowed to use that weapon on them in order to prevent them from taking it.


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16 Nov 2021, 8:53 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Personally while I feel Rittenhouse deserves a prison sentence it's incredibly creepy to hear grown-ass men joking about a teenager getting raped in prison. It kinda diminishes any credibility they might possess when commenting on topics related to sexual assault in the future.

Rape is bad mkay, well unless you're a criminal then you deserve it.


Agreed.

The ugliness of the comment is beyond doubt and seems to simply serve the needs of sanctimony.
It is extremely emotionalistic in nature and *is* the sort of thing you find in a mindless mob mentality devoid of reason.
Pretty scary stuff. 8O
It shouldn't be tolerated, imo. 8)



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16 Nov 2021, 8:54 pm

Brictoria wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Was Rittenhouse using an automatic rifle?
If so, was it set on "automatic" or single shot?


No, fully automatic rifles are heavily regulated here, they typically cost tens of thousands of dollars and require a federal background check including photos and fingerprints, that takes close to a year to complete. He had a bog standard AR15, a Smith and Wesson M&P, which is a basic entry level rifle that can be bought over the counter with a background check, which is semi automatic, one bullet per trigger pull. People don't seem to realize how quickly it's possible to shoot, guys who do competitive shooting aim for .10 seconds between shots, or 10 shots per second, it's not hard to achieve with a halfway decent trigger.


Then, consciously shooting someone 4 *separate* times is rather excessive, I would have thought.
But even professionals, such as police, do this, also.

the 4 times were over around .75 of a second from first to last shot, meaning there wasn't a huge amount of time involved in making the decision and it was more of a reflexive act following the first shot.


It sounds like a "panic response".



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16 Nov 2021, 9:09 pm

As the jury deliberates protests have already began outside the court
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 58293.html

The city of Kenosha is bracing for unrest in the wake of the verdict, with Wisconsin Governor Tony Evers putting 500 National Guard troops on standby.

I expect Kyle will need his QAnon benefactors to hire armed security for a while if he walks



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16 Nov 2021, 9:15 pm

cyberdad wrote:
As the jury deliberates protests have already began outside the court
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 58293.html

The city of Kenosha is bracing for unrest in the wake of the verdict, with Wisconsin Governor Tony Evers putting 500 National Guard troops on standby.

I expect Kyle will need his QAnon benefactors to hire armed security for a while if he walks


Yes, continue the hate! :thumright: :mrgreen:



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16 Nov 2021, 9:16 pm

Anyone know why Judge Schroeder allowed Rittenhouse to influence selection of the jury?

Apparently it's highly unusual
Rittenhouse reached into a raffle drum and drew numbered slips that determined which of the 18 jurors who sat through the case would deliberate and which ones would be dismissed as alternates.

I wonder how many murderers get to do this??



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16 Nov 2021, 9:17 pm

Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
As the jury deliberates protests have already began outside the court
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 58293.html

The city of Kenosha is bracing for unrest in the wake of the verdict, with Wisconsin Governor Tony Evers putting 500 National Guard troops on standby.

I expect Kyle will need his QAnon benefactors to hire armed security for a while if he walks


Yes, continue the hate! :thumright: :mrgreen:


Just reportin the news



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16 Nov 2021, 9:18 pm

Interesting closing point made by Judge Schroeder to the Jury

In his instructions to the jury, Schroeder said that to accept Rittenhouse’s claim of self-defense, the jurors must find that he believed there was an unlawful threat to him and that the amount of force he used was reasonable and necessary.

In my view Huber and GrossKreutz thought they were doing their civic duty to disarm an active shooter.



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16 Nov 2021, 9:26 pm

Pepe wrote:
It sounds like a "panic response".


Maybe, but protocol is to shoot until the threat is no longer a threat, which often translates into a quick burst of fire. Even someone shot through the heart can still bring a weapon to bear and kill you before expiring, so once you have to shoot, you shoot until they're down.


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16 Nov 2021, 9:30 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Personally while I feel Rittenhouse deserves a prison sentence it's incredibly creepy to hear grown-ass men joking about a teenager getting raped in prison. It kinda diminishes any credibility they might possess when commenting on topics related to sexual assault in the future.

Rape is bad mkay, well unless you're a criminal then you deserve it.


Not to keep harping on it, but it does disturb me how common this sentiment seems to be, you'd really think rape as a punishment would be beyond the pale for anyone claiming to be a good and moral person, but I can't tell you how often I've had to jump on people for it here.


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