Kyle Rittenhouse trial

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Dox47
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16 Nov 2021, 9:31 pm

cyberdad wrote:

I expect Kyle will need his QAnon benefactors to hire armed security for a while if he walks

Because that worked out so well for the rioters the first time?

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Dox47
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16 Nov 2021, 9:37 pm

cyberdad wrote:

In my view Huber and GrossKreutz thought they were doing their civic duty to disarm an active shooter.

Doesn't matter what they thinking, just like those guys in Georgia who chased down and shot the jogger thinking they were doing a citizen's arrest. If you're going to knock Rittenhouse for "playing cop", then you have to apply the same standard to Grosskreutz and Huber, as that's what they were doing.

Also, "active shooter" is kind of a meaningless buzzword, but is generally agreed to mean a mass shooter attempting to kill as many strangers at random as possible, which doesn't really square with a kid jogging towards the police who are within a block or so and clearly visible, as can be seen on the video.

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cyberdad
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16 Nov 2021, 9:39 pm

Dox47 wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

In my view Huber and GrossKreutz thought they were doing their civic duty to disarm an active shooter.

Except Huber was the one who was killed and Ahmed Arbery was doing rereational jogging. He wasn't illegally wandering during a curfew with a loaded weapon.

Last edited by Cornflake on 17 Nov 2021, 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.: Fixed misquoting

cyberdad
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16 Nov 2021, 9:43 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Also, "active shooter" is kind of a meaningless buzzword, but is generally agreed to mean a mass shooter attempting to kill as many strangers at random as possible, which doesn't really square with a kid jogging towards the police who are within a block or so and clearly visible, as can be seen on the video.

Rittenhouse went to the police after he shot the three. You might have forgotten but during the Charlottesville march one of the right wingers went rogue and drove into a crowd of protesters. Many of the BLM protesters must have been primed to expect that one of the armed milita might go rogue and shoot civilians. It was a legit assumption about Rittenhouse.

DW_a_mom
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16 Nov 2021, 9:49 pm

cyberdad wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

Don't you realize how entirely misleading one snippet of time can be? I learned long ago not to read into photos like this. What you think you see is usually wrong, in my experience. People who aren't bored yawn. It could mean he was too stressed to sleep well, among other things. And funny moments can happen in court.

And conversely you think Rittenhouse's timed crying comes from the bottom of his little heart. Legal defense teams coach their clients to behave/act in manner in accordance with maximising the potential to mitigate any charges leading to prosecution.

The famous South African legal case against Oscar Pistorius (Blade runner) is a classic example where everybody in the court knew Pistorious was faking his crying when he took the stand. The interpretation in that case is he wasn't crying because he shot his then girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp but because he was scared about going to jail and facing the consequences. The judge didn't buy his crying because prior to and subsequently he never showed emotion.

Rittenhouse shows no remorse either.

Pretty sure I never said what I believe, at least not with certainty; impressions only. I did attempt to refute your certainty as to it being an act, and then said the jury will decide because they are in the room with him and in a better position to decide.

What I will always debate against is opinions stated as facts and used to make a clean and distinct judgement against another human being. Your certainty that you are right, and lack of desire to consider any other explanation, is what I have trouble with. You show no grace at all for a young man clearly in over his head and that you have never met or talked to. I have never said he has to be seen as sincere. What I’ve said is that it is probable he is sincere and it cannot be discounted in the way you insist on doing. I do believe you are letting your desire for a certain outcome influence how you are seeing things. I’m willing to say I DO NOT KNOW. Couch your terminology a little and I won’t push back as hard.

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cyberdad
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16 Nov 2021, 9:57 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

You show no grace at all for a young man clearly in over his head. I have never said he has to be seen as sincere. What I’ve said is that it is probably he is sincere and it cannot be discounted in the way you insist on doing. I do believe you are letting your desire for a certain outcome influence how you are seeing things. I’m willing to say I DO NOT KNOW.

When he gave himself up to the police in Kenosha (when they let him go) and when he phoned his friend to tell him he killed two people, on both those occasions he did not cry, show emotion, or remorse for what he did. I do strongly think that he believed he was in the right to have killed them. When he was bailed and freed from jail there was no attempt to apologise for what he did but instead he got a disgusting t-shirt printed (which was basically a massive middle finger to the families of the dead men) plus he went out celebrating with right wing proud boys which means he believed he was right.

I judge Rittenhouse by his actions and his actions don't align with his choreographed tears in court

I really hope the jury aren't swayed by the BS being promulgated by hid QAnon funded defense team.

Last edited by cyberdad on 16 Nov 2021, 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DW_a_mom
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16 Nov 2021, 9:57 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:

ironpony wrote:

TheRobotLives wrote:

Pepe wrote:

I am assuming 3 men *were* chasing *him*, before any shots were made.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

He killed Rosenbaum, and then he fled, and was chased by a crowd of people.

The crowd was calling for someone to "get him".

Why was the crowd yelling get him if they didn't know he was active shooter? Isn't yelling get him to someone holding a carbine a bad idea, unless they are more certain it was him?

Rittenhouse just killed someone, and fled.

That makes him look guilty.

So, likely, the crowd believed he was a murderer trying to get away.

This is what at least some members of the crowd have said. They thought he was an active shooter and they were all in danger.

Very muddy water in those situations. Everyone is scared for their lives, when it comes right down to it.

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DW_a_mom
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16 Nov 2021, 10:00 pm

cyberdad wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

And I think you are discounting how shock and all the far right voices in the short term might have affected him, while time and contemplation can take their toll and change one’s insight. You are also ignoring the evidence of stress and instability early on, like throwing up in jail.

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DW_a_mom
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16 Nov 2021, 10:13 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Pepe wrote:

Was Rittenhouse using an automatic rifle?
If so, was it set on "automatic" or single shot?

No, fully automatic rifles are heavily regulated here, they typically cost tens of thousands of dollars and require a federal background check including photos and fingerprints, that takes close to a year to complete. He had a bog standard AR15, a Smith and Wesson M&P, which is a basic entry level rifle that can be bought over the counter with a background check, which is semi automatic, one bullet per trigger pull. People don't seem to realize how quickly it's possible to shoot, guys who do competitive shooting aim for .10 seconds between shots, or 10 shots per second, it's not hard to achieve with a halfway decent trigger.

I think your answer does go to the heart of the question as I read it: would the bullets after the first (which likely achieved a self defense goal) have had to be intentional? Not intentional at the time of the first bullet, but as each fired off? I think you’ve cast reasonable doubt on the assumption they were. Did the trial ever get into that issue?

Edit: did you read the David French piece on arms in these situations? Don’t expect you to agree with it; just asking.

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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 16 Nov 2021, 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cyberdad
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16 Nov 2021, 10:17 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

And I think you are discounting how shock and all the far right voices in the short term might have affected him, while time and contemplation can take their toll and change one’s insight. .

He met with the proud boys in celebration so he appears to enjoy the attention

DW_a_mom wrote:

You are also ignoring the evidence of stress and instability early on, like throwing up in jail.

Yes but that's my point, as with Oscar Pistorious it's the fear of jail not any sympthaty/empathy for the families of the deceased. I don't see any remorse in his behavior and I am not sure why you think he is remorseful??

Pepe
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16 Nov 2021, 10:20 pm

cyberdad wrote:

Interesting closing point made by Judge Schroeder to the Jury

In his instructions to the jury, Schroeder said that to accept Rittenhouse’s claim of self-defense, the jurors must find that he believed there was an unlawful threat to him and that the amount of force he used was reasonable and necessary.

In my view Huber and GrossKreutz thought they were doing their civic duty to disarm an active shooter.

Once again, Rittenhouse wasn't an "active shooter" until he was chased and attacked.

DW_a_mom
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16 Nov 2021, 10:21 pm

cyberdad wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

And I think you are discounting how shock and all the far right voices in the short term might have affected him, while time and contemplation can take their toll and change one’s insight. .

He met with the proud boys in celebration so he appears to enjoy the attention

DW_a_mom wrote:

You are also ignoring the evidence of stress and instability early on, like throwing up in jail.

Again, I never commented on if I think he is or isn’t remorseful. I said your reasons for ruling it completely out ignore quite a lot of human factors.

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Pepe
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16 Nov 2021, 10:23 pm

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cyberdad
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16 Nov 2021, 10:30 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

And I think you are discounting how shock and all the far right voices in the short term might have affected him, while time and contemplation can take their toll and change one’s insight. .

He met with the proud boys in celebration so he appears to enjoy the attention

DW_a_mom wrote:

You are also ignoring the evidence of stress and instability early on, like throwing up in jail.

Again, I never commented on if I think he is or isn’t remorseful. I said your reasons for ruling it completely out ignore quite a lot of human factors.

I am going by the evidence. Rittenhouse's behavior following the shooting does not equate with "naturally" showing emotion in court for his victims,

Is it possible the magnitude of what he has done hit him? possibly after listening to the prosecution, But again its not coming from a place of sympthaty/empathy for the victims, it's more like Oscar Pistorius which is a selfish fear of jail. Like Fnord said, crying in his pillow in prison.

DW_a_mom
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16 Nov 2021, 10:39 pm

cyberdad wrote:

Like Fnord said, crying in his pillow in prison.

Why would you repeat this phrase after several people in this thread have made clear it’s disturbing and inappropriate connotation? Did you not see those posts (the phrase itself flew over my head when I first saw it), or are you that vindictive? I’m disappointed in you.

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Dox47
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16 Nov 2021, 10:43 pm

cyberdad wrote:

Like Fnord said, crying in his pillow in prison.

That's, uh, not what Fnord said...

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