Victim stands up to a bully and gets suspended

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And once he saw the opening, he may have been a willing participant. I mean, escaping being the low person on the totem pole is heady stuff.

There is a book entitled SOMEONE HAS TO FAIL: THE ZERO-SUM GAME OF PUBLIC SCHOOLING. Don't know a thing about the book, but I love the title! And with the social aspect of school, this is even more true.

Watching the video once.

The shorter guy hits the being guy in the face. The second punch, the bigger guy blocks. The shorter guy is then dancing around in boxing stance. [maybe this is his chance to be in the main social flow and no longer being negatively labeled] But the bigger guy is not participating. He is not engaging in boxing stance. The shorter guy lands one or two blows on the guy's abdomen.

The bigger guy lifts the shorter guy. He pulls up before he gets to the planted area---the wood shelf. He throws the guy on his side. That is, it was not as bad as I thought it might be (but it still might be bad enough) [at second blow, bigger guy perhaps should have made tight punch on the guy's rib cage]

Good point, his friends could very well have egged him on hoping he would get hurt

Just so you know, 'fake' wrestling on tv takes ALOT of training and practice to pull those moves that, if performed without restraint, would kill people. The simple fact that the smaller kid does not have a broken arm or broken ribs as a result of that body slam is proof positive that the bigger kid was not trying to seriously injure him. He easily could have. He was wrapping the kid up, preventing him from swinging again. When he almost struggled free, the bigger kid hauled him up. He could have punched the kid square in the nose - punch for punch. Would that have been better? More fair? Less violent? Maybe the bigger kid should have curled into a ball and hoped the beating would stop?

The smaller kid showed an awful lot of confidence - pulling his Ali butterfly dance before hitting him. No way to know for sure but it sounded like a group of kids gathered specifically to watch the bigger kid get shoved around. I'd be suspending the kid that shot the video every bit as much as the one throwing punches. It's pack mentality. Those egging it on are every bit as much to blame as the one's doing the bullying.

My point wasn't about how real wresting is, my point was that in pro wrestling it is staged so they aren't resisting each other and therefore they could pull these types of moves off safely. However the kid picked up a resisting opponent so even if he was using restraint there's still some room for something going wrong and leading to a serious injury since it is harder to restrain a resisting opponent. If he wanted to pull a technique off with restraint he could've used a double leg or single leg takedown which has much less room for a serious injury and it uses leverage as opposed to raw strength.

Who said the kid had to curl up and get his ass beat? Name someone in this thread or it's a nothing but straw man. And this isn't about fairness, this is about using proportionate force. The bully was being a prick, so I don't really give a s**t about fairness. If the bully swung once it would've been fine for the kid to throw 5 shots at him. But when it goes from punches to a body slam which could easily crack your skull, that's when it becomes disproportionate use of force.

Yeah I understand that people tend to swing desperately, but it takes deliberate aim for the most part to throw a clean shot to the throat. The head is naturally inclined forward from the base of the neck which means the chin partly covers the throat. Anyways if you want a better example you can knock someone out but self defense becomes aggravated assault once you hit someone in the spinal cord.

And what's your point? It would've been perfectly legal for him to strike back right after he was hit, and that's what he should've done. What he shouldn't have done was the body slam which was overboard. I don't understand what point you're trying to get across at all. That my attitude is more aggressive than his? That would be a problem if I was advocating disproportionate use of force or overstepping the boundaries of self defense. But I'm not, so you don't really have much of a point if that's what it is.

I really do think the bigger kid was freestyling there - no wrestling experience to speak of. I don't even know if pro wrestling is popular in Australia. I only used it as an example of the restraint the kid used. And, in that moment of adrenaline and frustration and humiliation - I think the kid controlled himself much better than some adults would in the same situation. Asking for a bullied kid to think rationally about NOT hurting his attacker in the middle of the attack isn't really a reasonable expectation.

The little kid posed no grave harm to the big guy. The big guy however in response posed a grave harm to the little guy. When it's about life or death I'd understand freaking out but in these circumstances their is responsibility. Both were punished and I hope both received proper education accordingly to their individual actions and responsibilities. I'd go as far as sending them both to jail for a night.

I'm generally against violence however if my kids are bullied I plan to tell them to defend themselves against physical violence to the extent necessary to protect themselves. It is ok to fight back especially if you are cornered. My parents taught me violence was never the answer and that words are the answer but the truth is sometimes you simply must defend yourself. A day or a week off from school will hurt less in the long run then years of bullying and psychological abuse from classmates.

I am in favor of the authorities being active and doing something. However, I would not want either or both boys to be abused in jail, or threatened with abuse. Plus, a night in jail might kind of give you "big man on campus" status and something to brag about. Instead, I favor a boring punishment.

Maybe detention for two hours first and second period every day for four days. You just have to sit there and look forward. No, you cannot fall asleep. No, you cannot even read. (This certainly would be punishment for me as an Aspie person. I really don't know for other people.) By the time lunch rolled around after third period, this would be ancient history. And it certainly would be ancient history by the end of the school day. Nothing to brag about.

If a teacher or coach has a pre-existing relationship with one of the students who just stood around as spectator. The teacher might say, 'You escalated the situation when you didn't have to.' That is, with a good previous relationship, the teacher doesn't have to say much and the student might genuinely feel bad. The time the teacher sees the student, might ask the student to write down one or two sentences how he or she might better handle such a situation in the future.

Who the hell brags about jail. How can bad be good. It must be some kind of music and video game culture.

Not a rational thing to brag about, but then, who ever said adolescents were rational? (At times, they're very rational. in fact, teenagers can have a very keen moral sense I greatly admire. Other times, they're childish. Other times, they're mean and petty. They oscillate. And that seems to be entirely normal.)

When I was in high school in the late 1970s, early 1980s, the "Scared Straight" program got some news play. It later came out that at some high schools it was a status symbol to be sent to this.

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What do you think of the idea of a teacher who one of the spectator kids has a good relationship with saying (maybe with genuine anger): 'You escalated the situation when you didn't need to.'

Last edited by AardvarkGoodSwimmer on 16 Mar 2011, 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The bigger kid, who I think was trying to be decent about it, does throw the smaller kid face down, but I think he tried to protect the kid's head and face. The smaller kid mainly hit on his knees.

This must be the fault of Rock n Roll originally then with the greasers.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrzPmUASBho[/youtube]

So, the bully kid. The guy who had to show off and thus supposedly raise his 'status points.' He grabbed the bigger kid's shirt, talking mean to him, and then hit him.

That is, the hit was way telegraphed. It was palpably obvious pre-fight behavior.

So maybe, and you'd want to check with a boxing instructor or ju jitsu instructor, someone grabs your shirt and your gut feeling is that it's going to escalate. They have actually put themselves in a weaker position by immobilizing their own hand, you can grab the weak side of the hand (little finger side), turn them to the side, and at the same time put the heel of your hand on the rib cage and give them a short, sharp jab.

"THERE'S NOTHING TO FIGHT ABOUT."

Said loudly and confidently. You are giving the fight a chance to defuse if it can. You are showing medium strength.

You definitely want to check with an instructor. And trust your gut whether it feels right. And it's okay to be mistaken either way. How could it not be, for it's a highly fluid, highly unpredictable situation. (This is also the idea of taking medium steps, which I like a lot.)

Last edited by AardvarkGoodSwimmer on 16 Mar 2011, 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It may well be!

I will take back what I said about excessive force. The body slam wasn't as liable to going wrong as I initially thought and it was definitely appropriate use of force, though it can border on aggravated assault if the courts see it that way so it would be wiser to use a single or double leg takedown.