Arm the teachers

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John_Browning
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20 Dec 2012, 1:27 am

cammyyy wrote:

What an American solution. More guns aren't going to fix this issue.

We tried gun control 44 years ago...and again in 1986, 1989, 1994, and assorted state laws. It doesn't work!

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Dillogic
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20 Dec 2012, 2:03 am

cammyyy wrote:

Police have to go through a plethora of tests and examinations to determine whether or not they're mentally capable of being officers, and when there are issues that arise there are (supposed to be, anyway) support systems in place. And you seriously haven't seen any civilians "lose it in public" with firearms? There are a number of cases where people have taken guns and started shooting up people randomly. Of course, I'm Canadian, we're a little more controlled, but it happens all the time in the US.

They actually go through the same background checks as anyone else when dealing with firearms, just FYI and all (generally speaking and based on where you live. I've seen the forms they have to fill out and the checks and evidence needed are the same as a firearms license where I live). In addition to being put to the same standards of mental health. After they're hired they do have counselors on hand, of course, but again, most people have access to counselors (where I live anyway), and it's usually almost free.

No, I haven't seen any civilians lose it in public, and neither have you. I can read it on the news, but the chance of it happening, no matter the laws in place governing firearms, is statistically improbable and won't likely happen.

Think it's rare to have Asperger's (1 in 400 or so with 1 in 100 having an ASD; this is general)? Do the breakdown on your chance of witnessing a massacre. It's in the millionths at least. Nothing to be concerned over, whether it's a civilian or a police officer (massacres have been committed all the same by lone wolf police officers and military personnel; no need to mention those committed by government and public sanctioned groups, which is something you're far more likely to witness).

aghogday
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20 Dec 2012, 3:45 am

http://messiahsmandate.org/are-israeli-teachers-armed/

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/israel

Measures taken in Israel, to prevent school shooting, as described in the link above:

Quote:

In the picture, the students are on an outing. While it appears that the teacher is holding a rifle, I have never seen such a thing in ten years of living here. Rest assured however, they are under armed protection. In most cases it is an armed guard or a soldier that will accompany a class, not the teacher. And my guess is that the woman with the gun is a security guard, not a teacher.

Secondly, they are not armed in the classroom. Is that really the image you want to imprint on the minds of six-year-olds? (That would be Hamas) On the other hand. I have never seen a school in Israel that was not fenced in. You must go through a locked gate that is guarded by an armed shomer, a security guard. He or she, on the other hand, is not concerned with educating, but protecting. He or she will ask you why you are there? “What is your child’s name?” “Show me your I.D. card.” And he or she would not let you bring a weapon inside.

These types of massacres don’t seem to happen here for other reasons as well. Despite the stereotype of Israel being a violent nation, it is a million times (slight exaggeration) easier to get a weapon in the US than it is in Israel. Gun Control laws are very strict here.

Two types of people have guns in Israel: Soldiers and those with licenses. Mentally unstable people don’t have guns—and thus, don’t shoot people. And it is not as easy to steal a gun as it is in the US. When you are drafted you go through mental tests to see if there are any red flags. If so, you will be discharged or placed in an area where you would never see a rifle.

Only those with the rank of Captain or Lieutenant Colonel for at least two years can qualify to own a gun after the army. And those who do have guns are taught to guard them carefully. For soldiers who take their weapons home, it must be on their persons at all times or under lock and key.

Losing a weapon will get you a jail sentence, as my wife’s childhood friend, Moti, found out two decades ago. He left his gun in his car because he was just running into a minimart. He came back and the gun was gone. He spent six months in jail and God only knows where that gun ended up.

Hunting is not popular in Israel, so it would be rare to see someone with five or six hunting rifles and therefore, neither would their son, who spends ten hours a day playing mortal combat, have access to them.

We are fond of saying Guns don’t kill people, people do… But we could also say that Mentally unstable people who can’t obtain assault rifles or even pistols are far less likely to commit mass murder.

Assault rifles are banned in Israel, except in areas where there is a security risk such as the West Bank.

John_Browning
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20 Dec 2012, 3:55 am

The gunpolicy.org website tells a different story.

aghogday
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20 Dec 2012, 4:21 am

http://messiahsmandate.org/are-israeli-teachers-armed/

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/israel

http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/israel-firearms.htm

Which statement from the story does the gunpolicy.org refute?

Surfman
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20 Dec 2012, 4:50 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRgHSxWnhqk[/youtube]

DW_a_mom
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20 Dec 2012, 11:57 am

Dox47 wrote:

I'll throw this one in just to drive home the point:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/1 ... ore-179761

I'll add that in all my years of following gun related stories in the media, I've never heard of a licensed shooter hitting an innocent bystander during a defensive gun use; it may have happened some time some where, but we're talking beyond statistically irrelevant here. People have a lot more to worry about from the police spraying lead around than they do private citizens; the police don't go to jail when they miss their target.

I'd like to be clear on something. When I refer to the possibility of accidental shootings, I am NOT referring to the stray bullets in an intruder situation, I am referring to all the years in between, when an armed person panics in the wrong situation, a child somehow gets hold of the weapon and fires it, etc. Those are the accidents that DO happen. Not often, but they do. You'd have to balance the statistics.

I do not want weapons around my kids on a daily basis, can't help it, that feels like asking for trouble. The kids at school come from all sorts of homes and plenty would be willing and able to sneak a weapon off of a teacher, if the temptation were there. My son has learned to shoot and my daughter will learn to shoot, but that is in a highly controlled situation where safety and responsibility are taught first. You can't teach enough safety and responsibility to a 5 year old to allow them around guns that are not unloaded and locked up tight, and there are 12 year olds that have already spent a lifetime essentially learning the opposite of safety and responsibility. The parents I know who own guns don't hold them unsecured in their own homes for anything past a few minutes in transit; I doubt they would want them unsecured in their children's schools.

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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 20 Dec 2012, 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DW_a_mom
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20 Dec 2012, 11:59 am

Dox47 wrote:

(edited for length)

Quote:

What’s your answer to that? Is there some reason why the armed security guard is safe and helpful, but the armed teacher, administrator, or staffer — er, the teacher with a volunteer security guard license — would be useless and a menace?

http://www.volokh.com/2012/12/14/a-thought-experiment-related-to-school-shootings/

[/quote]

In my experience, when a school posts an "armed security guard," it IS a fully trained police officer, NOT the typical mall type security guard.

We've had a police officer at the middle school all week. Police officer, NOT someone with minimal training. Sorry for the using an imprecise term in my early post.

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Alycat
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20 Dec 2012, 1:02 pm

I'm a teacher, and definitely do NOT want to be armed.
I'd prefer it if they provided counselling for troubled people, and made it impossible for THEM to be armed.

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cammyyy
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20 Dec 2012, 1:14 pm

Alycat wrote:

I'm a teacher, and definitely do NOT want to be armed.
I'd prefer it if they provided counselling for troubled people, and made it impossible for THEM to be armed.

That, unfortunately, will never happen.

visagrunt
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20 Dec 2012, 1:49 pm

We seem to be lost in the weeds on this discussion, focussing on the immediate issue of whether or not armed teachers could prevent another Sandy Hook from taking place, without looking at the larger policy picture of what schools exist to do.

I take the view that the introduction of firearms into school is a reckless proposal.

I will leave aside the question of increased likelihood of accident--but it is far from a moot point. The incidence of accidental discharge of firearms rises in direct proportion to the number of firearms, and proliferation of the latter necessarily involves an increase in the former. While limiting the presence to teachers with concealed carry permits will mitigate this, it will not eliminate it.

The introduction of firearms introduces the opportunity for the "grab and shoot." To which the only possible response is to shoot to kill. The introduction of firearms introduces an opportunity for disproportional response. There is all manner of potential violence in a school setting, very few of which merit the use of deadly force. The introduction of firearms necessarily carries the expectation that a teacher with a concealed carry permit with be capable of accurate fire during highly charged, emotional circumstances--an expectation that may not necessarily be borne out.

But most telling of all, to me, is the symbolism of the act. Telling a child that their principal or their homeroom teacher is armed in order to protect them from harm carries a necessary implication: that there is harm from which they must be protected. It tells them that their daily life is full of peril, and that the correct answer to that peril is arming themselves with a lethal weapon. I think that is precisely the wrong message to convey to children--particularly to children of tender years.

American culture has fetishized the firearm. This fetish has a broad cultural genesis, some of which is fictional, some of which is mythologized, and some of which has been subject to revisionist reinterpretation.

The answer to the epidemic of firearms violence is not to legislate them out of existence--that's a fool's game; but rather to effect a cultural change in which the firearm's status as a fetish is undermined, and restored to a more utilitarian view. But cultural change will take at least a generation, if not three.

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cammyyy
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20 Dec 2012, 3:08 pm

^^^
Damn well put, kudos.

Raptor
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20 Dec 2012, 8:58 pm

visagrunt wrote:

I'm not for purposely arming them or requiring them to be armed but merely allowing the school employees that have a CCW to carry a concealed handgun, hence the CCW, during their work day.
In reality you'd typically only be talking about a relative few people per school actually armed. There would still be plenty that won't carry because they think guns are icky, too uncomfortable to carry concealed day in and day out, or lack the confidence to potentially have to use one.
Yesterday just in this county alone we had two elementary schools go into lock-down because of massacre threats. Just threats for entertainment purposes this time but if this kind of thing becomes even remotely trendy I'm not for allowing a few dozen kids here and there to get mowed down just because some people think that guns are icky and we're better off burring our heads in the sand.
I can come up with all kinds of creepy what if's about what can happen to me just by leaving the house every day but I take the risks and do it anyway.

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abacacus
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20 Dec 2012, 9:16 pm

Raptor wrote:

/\ /\
Yes, some schools around here have cops assigned. That is a very good defense as long as police department (or school) budgeting allows for it.
If things get tight that could be the first thing they cut from the budget depending on who's decision it is.

My local school had an officer as well, and I agree that it's a brilliant idea, far better than arming teachers.

Having a CCW does not equal competent enough to make effective use of a weapon.

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John_Browning
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20 Dec 2012, 9:16 pm

Alycat wrote:

I'm a teacher, and definitely do NOT want to be armed.
I'd prefer it if they provided counselling for troubled people, and made it impossible for THEM to be armed.

Banning people from having guns if they seek VOLUNTARY treatment would be seen as stigmatizing and would not only interfere greatly with getting potentially violent people to seek help, but many other groups that might otherwise seek help for other problems. At if done at all, any ban would have to be short-term and would have to be totally wiped from all court and government records when over.

visagrunt wrote:

But most telling of all, to me, is the symbolism of the act. Telling a child that their principal or their homeroom teacher is armed in order to protect them from harm carries a necessary implication: that there is harm from which they must be protected. It tells them that their daily life is full of peril, and that the correct answer to that peril is arming themselves with a lethal weapon. I think that is precisely the wrong message to convey to children--particularly to children of tender years.

Our society (including Canada for this argument) has a very unrealistic idea that we have a right to expect not to encounter dangers (of any type- human or not) and has a sanitized view of death. It's not healthy and it can (and often does) make people behave spoiled. It's really not much different than knowing from an age of about 3 or 4 that your parents keep a loaded gun (multiple ones later, during the '92 LA riots) because there are bad people out there and bad things happen.

1942. Training in marksmanship helps girls at Roosevelt High School in Los
Angeles, CA develop into responsible women. Part of Victory Corps
activities there, rifle practice encourages girls to be accurate in handling firearms.

Alycat
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20 Dec 2012, 9:51 pm

John_Browning wrote:

Alycat wrote:

I'm a teacher, and definitely do NOT want to be armed.
I'd prefer it if they provided counselling for troubled people, and made it impossible for THEM to be armed.

I didn't mean banning people who were troubled from having guns. I meant banning the public from having guns full stop.

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