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Kraichgauer
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24 Jul 2015, 10:07 am

eric76 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
eric76 wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Even though it is irritating I reiterate, the best way to handle the cops is to be sweet, be polite, and that goes for everyone. Yeah, it can be irritating getting stopped but it's best to just be sweet.

That would be my strategy too, but she didn't deserve to die.


There is no evidence that anyone killed her. She did it to herself.


I agree, her death by all indication was a suicide. But the fact is, this woman had had a history of suicidal thoughts, and at least one attempt, which the police were in fact aware of. Being arrested on a bogus charge would send anyone into a state of depression. That, and this poor woman was never put on suicide watch, despite the fact that it was obvious from her refusal of food that she was no longer in a right frame of mind. Yes, she killed herself, but the police were responsible for facilitating the situation in which her suicide occurred.


So you are suggesting that if someone has ever had a suicidal thought, then they should be placed under suicide watch and observed carefully for the rest of their lives?


The police knew about her history of depression and suicide attempts because she had filled out a questionnaire after being arrested. There is still no excuse for the police not keeping an eye on her.


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eric76
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24 Jul 2015, 10:58 am

androbot01 wrote:
eric76 wrote:
She wasn't there for not using a turn signal. She was there for refusing a lawful order given to her by the cop, resisting arrest, and assaulting the cop.

Is it a lawful order to put your cigarette out? It seems her refusal is what set him off. She complied with his order to get out of the car.


One thing that we don't know is whether she did anything with the lit cigarette that might constitute an assault.

For example, if she blew smoke in his face, I'd say he had every right in the world to ask her to put it out. The same if she flicked ashes at him. Either of these would be an act of aggression and would amount to an assault.

If she did something like that (and remember that we don't know that yet), then asking her to get out of the vehicle was perfectly justified. That is especially true if she reacted to the request to put the cigarette out by blowing more smoke in his face along with her rant about not having to put it out.

I don't remember from the video whether he ordered her to put the cigarette out or requested that she put it out. In either case, though, a refusal would certainly make it reasonable to ask her to get out of the car.

For what it's worth, many cops will ask someone to put out a cigarette. if they refuse the simple courtesy, many cops are more likely think that the person may be trying to hide something and will take a much closer look at the situation. For example, I have been told that many people who have been drinking will light up a cigarette when being stopped to try to cover the alcohol on their breath. That can also apply to those who have been smoking marijuana.

Such a refusal may also mean that instead of a warning you get a ticket. Or instead of a ticket you get taken to jail. It can also prompt the cop to see what other violations he might be able to find and write tickets for one or more of them as well -- violations that he might well have ignored otherwise.



eric76
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24 Jul 2015, 11:00 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
The police knew about her history of depression and suicide attempts because she had filled out a questionnaire after being arrested. There is still no excuse for the police not keeping an eye on her.


On a different discussion about this incident, someone else said that in Texas, it would mean that someone will look in the cell to see that you are okay every half hour or so.

They also said that the past history is one thing, but answers to questions like "Do you feel suicidal now?" are more likely to result in a psychiatric evaluation to determine whether she go to jail or to a psychiatric hospital for further evaluation. The admittance papers are said to have reported that she did not seem confused, paranoid, or preoccupied.



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24 Jul 2015, 11:19 am

eric76 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
eric76 wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Even though it is irritating I reiterate, the best way to handle the cops is to be sweet, be polite, and that goes for everyone. Yeah, it can be irritating getting stopped but it's best to just be sweet.

That would be my strategy too, but she didn't deserve to die.


There is no evidence that anyone killed her. She did it to herself.


I agree, her death by all indication was a suicide. But the fact is, this woman had had a history of suicidal thoughts, and at least one attempt, which the police were in fact aware of. Being arrested on a bogus charge would send anyone into a state of depression. That, and this poor woman was never put on suicide watch, despite the fact that it was obvious from her refusal of food that she was no longer in a right frame of mind. Yes, she killed herself, but the police were responsible for facilitating the situation in which her suicide occurred.


So you are suggesting that if someone has ever had a suicidal thought, then they should be placed under suicide watch and observed carefully for the rest of their lives?
if they are in prison(and thus a ward of the state), yes. there was no reason for this woman to have been in prison in the first place, citations are not a jailable offense.



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24 Jul 2015, 11:20 am

androbot01 wrote:
Is it a lawful order to put your cigarette out?


I just watched that part of the video again. He did not order her to put out her cigarette. He asked. When she refused, he did give her a lawful order -- to step out of the car.



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24 Jul 2015, 11:22 am

Fugu wrote:
if they are in prison(and thus a ward of the state), yes. there was no reason for this woman to have been in prison in the first place, citations are not a jailable offense.


My understanding is that in Texas, you can go to jail for any traffic offense except speeding by less than a certain amount (like 20 or 25 mph over the limit, I think).

But she did not go to jail for a traffic citation. She went to jail for assault and resisting arrest.



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24 Jul 2015, 11:41 am

eric76 wrote:
Fugu wrote:
if they are in prison(and thus a ward of the state), yes. there was no reason for this woman to have been in prison in the first place, citations are not a jailable offense.


My understanding is that in Texas, you can go to jail for any traffic offense except speeding by less than a certain amount (like 20 or 25 mph over the limit, I think).

But she did not go to jail for a traffic citation. She went to jail for assault and resisting arrest.
the officer escalated it for no real reason by threatening to tase her, and then lead her off camera and then a confrontation ensued. why would the cop lead her off to the side out of view of the camera(he had to know where it was pointed) if not to obscure what was going to happen?



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24 Jul 2015, 11:52 am

Fugu wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Fugu wrote:
if they are in prison(and thus a ward of the state), yes. there was no reason for this woman to have been in prison in the first place, citations are not a jailable offense.


My understanding is that in Texas, you can go to jail for any traffic offense except speeding by less than a certain amount (like 20 or 25 mph over the limit, I think).

But she did not go to jail for a traffic citation. She went to jail for assault and resisting arrest.
the officer escalated it for no real reason by threatening to tase her, and then lead her off camera and then a confrontation ensued. why would the cop lead her off to the side out of view of the camera(he had to know where it was pointed) if not to obscure what was going to happen?


The point at which he threatened to use the taser her, she was already refusing to comply with a lawful request. That was plenty of reason for the threat.

As for leading her off to the side out of view, he was standing just on the edge of the video and ordering her to come over to where he was from where she was standing completely out of the video and she didn't want to comply at all. He might have thought that the video was that wide or he might have thought that the video was not that wide. If he wanted to obscure what was going to happen (laughable) then when he was ordering her to come over to him, wouldn't he have been further off of the side of the video?



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24 Jul 2015, 12:39 pm

eric76 wrote:
Fugu wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Fugu wrote:
if they are in prison(and thus a ward of the state), yes. there was no reason for this woman to have been in prison in the first place, citations are not a jailable offense.


My understanding is that in Texas, you can go to jail for any traffic offense except speeding by less than a certain amount (like 20 or 25 mph over the limit, I think).

But she did not go to jail for a traffic citation. She went to jail for assault and resisting arrest.
the officer escalated it for no real reason by threatening to tase her, and then lead her off camera and then a confrontation ensued. why would the cop lead her off to the side out of view of the camera(he had to know where it was pointed) if not to obscure what was going to happen?


The point at which he threatened to use the taser her, she was already refusing to comply with a lawful request. That was plenty of reason for the threat.

As for leading her off to the side out of view, he was standing just on the edge of the video and ordering her to come over to where he was from where she was standing completely out of the video and she didn't want to comply at all. He might have thought that the video was that wide or he might have thought that the video was not that wide. If he wanted to obscure what was going to happen (laughable) then when he was ordering her to come over to him, wouldn't he have been further off of the side of the video?
the 'lawful request'(which he was not required to have done) to stop smoking her cigarette which had 0 bearing on the trooper's ability to write a ticket. the trooper also didn't tell her what she was being arrested for as well, nor did he say what reason he had to be removing her from his vehicle. these are all things that he should have indicated to her.
http://www.texasstandard.org/shows/current/10-things-about-the-sandra-bland-traffic-stop-every-texan-should-know/



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24 Jul 2015, 1:43 pm

Fugu wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Fugu wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Fugu wrote:
if they are in prison(and thus a ward of the state), yes. there was no reason for this woman to have been in prison in the first place, citations are not a jailable offense.


My understanding is that in Texas, you can go to jail for any traffic offense except speeding by less than a certain amount (like 20 or 25 mph over the limit, I think).

But she did not go to jail for a traffic citation. She went to jail for assault and resisting arrest.
the officer escalated it for no real reason by threatening to tase her, and then lead her off camera and then a confrontation ensued. why would the cop lead her off to the side out of view of the camera(he had to know where it was pointed) if not to obscure what was going to happen?


The point at which he threatened to use the taser her, she was already refusing to comply with a lawful request. That was plenty of reason for the threat.

As for leading her off to the side out of view, he was standing just on the edge of the video and ordering her to come over to where he was from where she was standing completely out of the video and she didn't want to comply at all. He might have thought that the video was that wide or he might have thought that the video was not that wide. If he wanted to obscure what was going to happen (laughable) then when he was ordering her to come over to him, wouldn't he have been further off of the side of the video?
the 'lawful request'(which he was not required to have done) to stop smoking her cigarette which had 0 bearing on the trooper's ability to write a ticket. the trooper also didn't tell her what she was being arrested for as well, nor did he say what reason he had to be removing her from his vehicle. these are all things that he should have indicated to her.
http://www.texasstandard.org/shows/current/10-things-about-the-sandra-bland-traffic-stop-every-texan-should-know/


That is hardly an authoritative site by any stretch of the imagination.



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24 Jul 2015, 1:59 pm

Also, my impression is that they often don't tell people why they are under arrest until they are in handcuffs or are otherwise restrained.

Look. The cop did not handle it very well at all. It was apparently not within the basic standards of the Texas DPS.

That said, if you are asked to get out of the vehicle during a traffic stop, you must get out of the vehicle. It's not your choice to make. Whether or not they have to give a reason depends on the law -- I suspect on case law for the jurisdiction in question, not on the statutes themselves.

When I've been stopped and the officer wanted me out of the vehicle, it was always obvious why he wanted me out -- he didn't have to say. But that usually hasn't been a problem since my first inclination is to get out of the vehicle when stopped.



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24 Jul 2015, 2:11 pm

eric76 wrote:
Also, my impression is that they often don't tell people why they are under arrest until they are in handcuffs or are otherwise restrained.

Look. The cop did not handle it very well at all. It was apparently not within the basic standards of the Texas DPS.

That said, if you are asked to get out of the vehicle during a traffic stop, you must get out of the vehicle. It's not your choice to make. Whether or not they have to give a reason depends on the law -- I suspect on case law for the jurisdiction in question, not on the statutes themselves.

When I've been stopped and the officer wanted me out of the vehicle, it was always obvious why he wanted me out -- he didn't have to say. But that usually hasn't been a problem since my first inclination is to get out of the vehicle when stopped.
she didn't handle it very well, that's true, but the officer did nothing but escalate the situation when he could have calmed down and talked her down. instead he threatened violence and used force. not really protecting or serving anyone, or behaving like a peace officer by any stretch.



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24 Jul 2015, 2:21 pm

Fugu wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Also, my impression is that they often don't tell people why they are under arrest until they are in handcuffs or are otherwise restrained.

Look. The cop did not handle it very well at all. It was apparently not within the basic standards of the Texas DPS.

That said, if you are asked to get out of the vehicle during a traffic stop, you must get out of the vehicle. It's not your choice to make. Whether or not they have to give a reason depends on the law -- I suspect on case law for the jurisdiction in question, not on the statutes themselves.

When I've been stopped and the officer wanted me out of the vehicle, it was always obvious why he wanted me out -- he didn't have to say. But that usually hasn't been a problem since my first inclination is to get out of the vehicle when stopped.
she didn't handle it very well, that's true, but the officer did nothing but escalate the situation when he could have calmed down and talked her down. instead he threatened violence and used force. not really protecting or serving anyone, or behaving like a peace officer by any stretch.


I'm still curious what there was about the cigarette that made him ask her to put it out. It seemed to me from the video that there was a long pause. On one recording, it sounded like there was a faint "pfft" during that pause. Prior to that, he was calm and she was agitated. Something got to him in those few moments.

I don't know if he could be faulted for anything about the stop prior to that request.



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24 Jul 2015, 2:33 pm

eric76 wrote:
Fugu wrote:
she didn't handle it very well, that's true, but the officer did nothing but escalate the situation when he could have calmed down and talked her down. instead he threatened violence and used force. not really protecting or serving anyone, or behaving like a peace officer by any stretch.


I'm still curious what there was about the cigarette that made him ask her to put it out. It seemed to me from the video that there was a long pause. On one recording, it sounded like there was a faint "pfft" during that pause. Prior to that, he was calm and she was agitated. Something got to him in those few moments.
I don't know if he could be faulted for the stop.
i'd say it's 50/50 as she did mention that she tried to exit the cop's path immediately prior to being stopped. texas isn't a very nice place for people that aren't white, even today.



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24 Jul 2015, 3:18 pm

Fugu wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Fugu wrote:
she didn't handle it very well, that's true, but the officer did nothing but escalate the situation when he could have calmed down and talked her down. instead he threatened violence and used force. not really protecting or serving anyone, or behaving like a peace officer by any stretch.


I'm still curious what there was about the cigarette that made him ask her to put it out. It seemed to me from the video that there was a long pause. On one recording, it sounded like there was a faint "pfft" during that pause. Prior to that, he was calm and she was agitated. Something got to him in those few moments.
I don't know if he could be faulted for the stop.
i'd say it's 50/50 as she did mention that she tried to exit the cop's path immediately prior to being stopped. texas isn't a very nice place for people that aren't white, even today.


She didn't signal. That is certainly cause for a traffic stop.



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24 Jul 2015, 3:33 pm

Quote:
“What’s disturbing here was that she was arrested for assaulting an officer,” Ms. Robertson said. “He had to arrest her because she was resisting arrest, but her resistance is a response to the officer escalating the situation.”

NYTimes