11 Dec 2015, 8:24 pm
Edenthiel wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Do you think a girl dressed like a guy could get away with being in a guys lockerroom with a whole bunch of jocks? She'd be a laughing farce.
I'm going to assume you are trying to say that trans guys couldn't "get away" with being in a guys' locker room with a bunch of jocks.
You know, guys like Aydian Dowling. Or Shawn Stinson. Or Neo Sandja.
Fortunately, they really don't care what you say, and a lot of their fellow jocks don't, either.
Ok, I looked up this Aydian Dowling. He's transgender and my question is - does he have a penis or not? He's already a guy from the waist up so there's no reason not to go through with a total sex change. You don't think if a manly man like that went into a guys lockerroom naked without a "package" the guys wouldn't say something? Please spare me. Likewise the same if a woman was running around a lockerroom with a dangling appendage- women would run out screaming. Which is my point - if they want to be the opposite sex and they go that far to look like a man, then go all the way. And why make it so public? If this Aydian person went into a guys lockerroom, sure he would pass inspection as long as he didn't change in front of everyone else and make them uncomfortable. If these girls were ok with that kid changing in their lockerroom then I'd be fine with it. I somehow doubt that's the case otherwise it wouldn't have been in court.
11 Dec 2015, 9:29 pm
Edenthiel wrote:
This goes way beyond belief, RoadRatt. Beyond "sincerely held belief" even. The problem is your definition of "biological" or even male/female (or boy/girl). You are *choosing* to base it on a single body part based on nothing but tradition (or Tradition). You are deciding for other people what *makes* them a man or woman / boy or girl. The actual biology of human sex dimorphism is nothing like that, and your choice for them is sometimes inaccurate.
20 years ago there was a study (Zhou, et all 1994). Statistically insignificant, insufficient methodology, but that's sometimes the case when something new is discovered because you don't know what you are looking for. Zhou found that human brains have at least one low level site that is structured different for men and women. And it matches sex identity, not necessarily the sex assigned at birth. Those findings were replicated, confirmed and greatly expanded. Whole new areas of study opened up in a number of fields. Just last year someone actually mapped out the differences in neuron connections of certain brain structures between the two sexes of 2mm long nematodes. They only have 400 neurons, which proves these differences are very basic indeed.
Other researchers over the last 20 years worked out which other brain sites and attributes are sex-dirmorphic, how & why they develop in utero (for humans; some species such as rats differentiate just after birth) , which genes are responsible and how they express, and so on. That has been matched by corresponding findings in endocrinology (hormones & the chemical functionality of receptors), genetics and developmental biology.
It comes down to this: there are 20+ known brain areas that are different for men and women. We know how and when they develop in the direction they do. And they are the structures underlying functions such as your sense of Self (damage it and you can't tell you from other) *and* the brain's internal, low level, hardwired map of the body. And guess what? They match sex/gender identity, not the sex assigned at birth based on one other body site that develops at a different time in utero, with different triggers.
Something to consider: You can damage or lose other parts of the body and still remain who you are. That doesn't work with the brain, so in a very real way it is *the* sex dimorphic part that determines what you are.
20 years ago there was a study (Zhou, et all 1994). Statistically insignificant, insufficient methodology, but that's sometimes the case when something new is discovered because you don't know what you are looking for. Zhou found that human brains have at least one low level site that is structured different for men and women. And it matches sex identity, not necessarily the sex assigned at birth. Those findings were replicated, confirmed and greatly expanded. Whole new areas of study opened up in a number of fields. Just last year someone actually mapped out the differences in neuron connections of certain brain structures between the two sexes of 2mm long nematodes. They only have 400 neurons, which proves these differences are very basic indeed.
Other researchers over the last 20 years worked out which other brain sites and attributes are sex-dirmorphic, how & why they develop in utero (for humans; some species such as rats differentiate just after birth) , which genes are responsible and how they express, and so on. That has been matched by corresponding findings in endocrinology (hormones & the chemical functionality of receptors), genetics and developmental biology.
It comes down to this: there are 20+ known brain areas that are different for men and women. We know how and when they develop in the direction they do. And they are the structures underlying functions such as your sense of Self (damage it and you can't tell you from other) *and* the brain's internal, low level, hardwired map of the body. And guess what? They match sex/gender identity, not the sex assigned at birth based on one other body site that develops at a different time in utero, with different triggers.
Something to consider: You can damage or lose other parts of the body and still remain who you are. That doesn't work with the brain, so in a very real way it is *the* sex dimorphic part that determines what you are.
I know what men and women are, if it has a penis it's male no matter what it's head tells it that it is. If it has a vagina it's a female no matter what it's head tells it that it is. Trying to cloud the issue with what's in a person's head is only muddying the water. What the head tells you is between the trans person and their psychiatrist. If my head told me I was a duck people would say I was crazy and lock me away, yet as long as it's a transgender issue everyone thinks we should all fall in line with this illogical argument and go along with it.
Not trying to say you're all crazy by the way. I just can't come up with another example or way of putting it to get my point across.
11 Dec 2015, 9:44 pm
Good one, RoadRatt. 
(Normally I'm not even saying stuff like this and taunting people, but right back at you Ardentmisanthrope23, if you are going to make fun of what's being said. )
11 Dec 2015, 10:16 pm
RoadRatt wrote:
Edenthiel wrote:
This goes way beyond belief, RoadRatt. Beyond "sincerely held belief" even. The problem is your definition of "biological" or even male/female (or boy/girl). You are *choosing* to base it on a single body part based on nothing but tradition (or Tradition). You are deciding for other people what *makes* them a man or woman / boy or girl. The actual biology of human sex dimorphism is nothing like that, and your choice for them is sometimes inaccurate.
20 years ago there was a study (Zhou, et all 1994). Statistically insignificant, insufficient methodology, but that's sometimes the case when something new is discovered because you don't know what you are looking for. Zhou found that human brains have at least one low level site that is structured different for men and women. And it matches sex identity, not necessarily the sex assigned at birth. Those findings were replicated, confirmed and greatly expanded. Whole new areas of study opened up in a number of fields. Just last year someone actually mapped out the differences in neuron connections of certain brain structures between the two sexes of 2mm long nematodes. They only have 400 neurons, which proves these differences are very basic indeed.
Other researchers over the last 20 years worked out which other brain sites and attributes are sex-dirmorphic, how & why they develop in utero (for humans; some species such as rats differentiate just after birth) , which genes are responsible and how they express, and so on. That has been matched by corresponding findings in endocrinology (hormones & the chemical functionality of receptors), genetics and developmental biology.
It comes down to this: there are 20+ known brain areas that are different for men and women. We know how and when they develop in the direction they do. And they are the structures underlying functions such as your sense of Self (damage it and you can't tell you from other) *and* the brain's internal, low level, hardwired map of the body. And guess what? They match sex/gender identity, not the sex assigned at birth based on one other body site that develops at a different time in utero, with different triggers.
Something to consider: You can damage or lose other parts of the body and still remain who you are. That doesn't work with the brain, so in a very real way it is *the* sex dimorphic part that determines what you are.
20 years ago there was a study (Zhou, et all 1994). Statistically insignificant, insufficient methodology, but that's sometimes the case when something new is discovered because you don't know what you are looking for. Zhou found that human brains have at least one low level site that is structured different for men and women. And it matches sex identity, not necessarily the sex assigned at birth. Those findings were replicated, confirmed and greatly expanded. Whole new areas of study opened up in a number of fields. Just last year someone actually mapped out the differences in neuron connections of certain brain structures between the two sexes of 2mm long nematodes. They only have 400 neurons, which proves these differences are very basic indeed.
Other researchers over the last 20 years worked out which other brain sites and attributes are sex-dirmorphic, how & why they develop in utero (for humans; some species such as rats differentiate just after birth) , which genes are responsible and how they express, and so on. That has been matched by corresponding findings in endocrinology (hormones & the chemical functionality of receptors), genetics and developmental biology.
It comes down to this: there are 20+ known brain areas that are different for men and women. We know how and when they develop in the direction they do. And they are the structures underlying functions such as your sense of Self (damage it and you can't tell you from other) *and* the brain's internal, low level, hardwired map of the body. And guess what? They match sex/gender identity, not the sex assigned at birth based on one other body site that develops at a different time in utero, with different triggers.
Something to consider: You can damage or lose other parts of the body and still remain who you are. That doesn't work with the brain, so in a very real way it is *the* sex dimorphic part that determines what you are.
I know what men and women are, if it has a penis it's male no matter what it's head tells it that it is. If it has a vagina it's a female no matter what it's head tells it that it is. Trying to cloud the issue with what's in a person's head is only muddying the water. What the head tells you is between the trans person and their psychiatrist. If my head told me I was a duck people would say I was crazy and lock me away, yet as long as it's a transgender issue everyone thinks we should all fall in line with this illogical argument and go along with it.
Not trying to say you're all crazy by the way. I just can't come up with another example or way of putting it to get my point across.
So in other words: you believe what you believe and no amount of measurable fact or scientific research is going to change what you believe because you are happy staying ignorant because it makes you feel superior to people different from yourself that you are afraid of. Cool.
Keep burying your head in the sand, but transgender people aren't going anywhere and if you can't accept their existence you are going to be left in the dust with the other bigot dinosaurs.
11 Dec 2015, 10:20 pm
nurseangela wrote:
Edenthiel wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Do you think a girl dressed like a guy could get away with being in a guys lockerroom with a whole bunch of jocks? She'd be a laughing farce.
I'm going to assume you are trying to say that trans guys couldn't "get away" with being in a guys' locker room with a bunch of jocks.
You know, guys like Aydian Dowling. Or Shawn Stinson. Or Neo Sandja.
Fortunately, they really don't care what you say, and a lot of their fellow jocks don't, either.
Ok, I looked up this Aydian Dowling. He's transgender and my question is - does he have a penis or not? He's already a guy from the waist up so there's no reason not to go through with a total sex change. You don't think if a manly man like that went into a guys lockerroom naked without a "package" the guys wouldn't say something? Please spare me. Likewise the same if a woman was running around a lockerroom with a dangling appendage- women would run out screaming. Which is my point - if they want to be the opposite sex and they go that far to look like a man, then go all the way. And why make it so public? If this Aydian person went into a guys lockerroom, sure he would pass inspection as long as he didn't change in front of everyone else and make them uncomfortable. If these girls were ok with that kid changing in their lockerroom then I'd be fine with it. I somehow doubt that's the case otherwise it wouldn't have been in court.
Not everyone is as much of a pearl-clutcher as you. If a transgender woman was in the same change-room as me, I would not run out screaming because of a penis. I am an adult, and such ridiculously overdone and childish reactions like that are beneath me. Being in the same room with a penis is not going to harm me in any way. Get a grip, lady. Seriously.
11 Dec 2015, 10:23 pm
11 Dec 2015, 10:27 pm
12 Dec 2015, 12:30 am
12 Dec 2015, 6:33 am
neilson_wheels
Veteran
Joined: 11 Mar 2013
Age: 54
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,404
Location: London, Capital of the Un-United Kingdom
12 Dec 2015, 6:49 am
12 Dec 2015, 7:44 am
12 Dec 2015, 8:40 am
12 Dec 2015, 8:47 am
12 Dec 2015, 9:39 am
12 Dec 2015, 9:46 am
^ thanks very much for this interesting personal insight, it's a refreshing change from some of the previous posts.
12 Dec 2015, 9:50 am
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