Thousands wounded by Exploding Pagers in Lebanon

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Terrorists need to go boom.
That includes much of the Israeli political establishment.

According to every single news article I've seen, those pagers were ordered and distributed specifically by Hezbollah in order to communicate with their fighters and members because they were worried that the Israelis could be tracking their cellphones. They were not just some random popular brand that you could buy in any hardware store. In looking for more information, I've seen sources saying that everyone who was in possession of those pagers were Hezbollah members (though granted, that doesn't mean that they were militants because Hezbollah is also a political organisation which have some public servants working for them and could be classed as civilians).

There's point to be made that depending on where they were, innocent bystanders would also be at risk but the most severe injuries that you described would have been people who had the pagers on their bodies or were holding them.

The three children who were unfortunately harmed were actually the children of a Hezbollah fighter who were unfortunately playing with daddy's pager when it exploded. Not saying that they deserved it but to me, it was the father put them in harms way.


Notice that I said Hezbollah members, not fighters. Since not all members of Hezbollah are necessarily fighters, some could be classed as civilians under international law. However, I also have zero sympathy for them if they're members of Hezbollah, regardless if they're civilians or not since it's still an organisation with a disgusting Islamist ideology. So I think that if they're members of Hezbollah, even if they're not fighters, they deserve as much sympathy as Israeli settlers in the West Bank who take it upon themselves to attack Palestinians. My sympathy is reserved only for those bystanders who have nothing to do with Hezbollah.

Isnt that what theyve been since 1948?

This whole mess traces back to the recreation of Israel!

https://youtu.be/a_aSCZwbtsU

And?

With no reliable means of ensuring they were detonated in the hands of the intended targets with no-one else nearby, this was cruel and utterly uncaring.

If this booby-trapping was done by Hezbollah/whoever to phones/pagers in the hands of Israeli citizens alleged to belong to some group or other, this forum would be ablaze with condemnation of such callous terrorism.

Still no attempt at ensuring the "correct" target was eliminated.

None of that ameliorates the means used.

So the person carrying a booby-trapped device was to blame that someone else detonated it?
Impressive mental gymnastics.

That they might have been a terrorist so they got what they deserved is the operating level here?

And what of the thousands seriously injured - more collateral damage to be hand-waved away?

Ah yes, given no evidence to the contrary that would appear to be the majority.

I gather the arming code was a message requesting the reset button be pushed, meaning most displays were being read at detonation, resulting in mostly hand/face injuries.
I can see how they'd think the pager owner would be the one pushing the button. I note however that many also detonated in pockets.

I agree with Jono on this, critical thinking is being able to weigh up both sides of an argument impartially. So sticking with the thread. Let's objectively look at what happened.
1. Hezbollah amassing rockets and fighters along the Israeli border
2. Mossad get viable intelligence Hezbollah are aiming a big offensive on Israeli civilians (and their is a precedence)
3. Mossad spies infiltrated Hezbollah and plant explosives in pagers and Ham radios.
4. Hezbollah's fighters injured or killed.
5. Hezbollah's ability to launch an attack has been delayed
Do I agree with Israel committing this act? no. I don't advocate this because government knew their would be civilian collateral injuries and deaths. As Jono said most of the civilians appear to direct families of Hezbollah fighters.
But of course Israel is "despicable" because of civilians killed right! Lets ignore Israeli women and children because they are "evil" and "progressive" Americans would never ever do this.

but! remember Barak Obama? he was a good guy right...
remember he gave the green light to launch an offensive on Pakistani soil in order to kill Osama Bin Laden.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_o ... ht%20exist.

Guess what, a number of women and men not associated with Bin Laden were shot dead before they could surrender.
According to Obama administration officials, U.S. officials did not share information about the raid with the government of Pakistan until it was over.

the world applauded Obama as a hero, nobody gave a crap for the civilians who were basically executed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now, how is this different to what Israel did?

In conclusion neither of these operations in Lebanon or Pakistan were done with knowledge of both governments. But the difference is Israel were directly protecting their civilians. Obama was looking for revenge for 9-11.

this is critical thinking in action. For anyone wanting a demonstration, And I am keeping on topic. And before I am castigated or this thread locked - I do not support Israel killing civilians. But I can understand why they did it.

*proceeds to explain the situation from the perspective of Israel's interests*



I don't support Hamas or Hezbollah killing civilians, but I can understand why they do so.

I can also understand why Israel uses force, the only problem is that they're the instigator of the conflict and have been since day one so I can't see Israel's constant use of force as anything but a long history of antagonistic violence from a state that behaves with genocidal and expansionist intentions.

Israel has been a terrorist state since it's formation. They don't deserve my sympathy more than their victims do.

No FE, I am offering a different perspective to the "Israel bad" argument that is the only perspective permitted on WP. Critical thinking means looking at all side's perspectives.

Agreed

Critical thinking doesn't just mean looking at all side's perspectives, it also means critically evaluating them on their merits.

What you're doing is uncritically parroting Israel's position while conceding that the criticisms of their actions are largely fair in order to avoid owning the position you consistently take (which is to say, uncritically parroting Israel's positions again).

If you don't agree that the criticisms are valid, own that position.
If you do agree that the criticisms are valid stop trying to have things both ways and own that position.

You're basically pulling the enlightened centrist trope on this issue and hoping we're all too f*****g stupid to notice it.

I'm sorry but if I said
Germany and South Africa were terrorist states (which they were) but the deaths of German civilians or the deaths of white South African civilians don't deserve my sympathy > victims of the regimes that once ruled these countries I would be called unethical and lacking morals. Why because all deaths are bad, Last time I checked, that includes Jewish men, women and children who have died since 1948.

Germany post-WWII had been 100,000 x worse than Israel. But did Germany have to give up their lands. No, Germany was allowed to prosper. Were companies in Germany who used slave labour allowed to prosper? of course. that's because how Germany prospered off the backs of gold extracted from the teeth of Jewish people they sent to the gas chambers is now irrelevant.

How Israel was founded is also irrelevant now. It is not South Africa, Israel is like New Caledonia, both were founded as colony states that threw out the locals and stocked their new nations with their own people (the French now outnumber local Kanaks in New Caledonia). Nobody criticises France for their state which they propped up. Same with Israel. Israel exists now and will exist in the future. You will not change that. Israel is a democracy, as the majority of the population is Jewish, it is effectively a Jewish state that votes in parties that support judaism. Calling them a terrorist state is meaningless. they exist, and how they interact with their numerically superior and well armed hostile neighbors is their business (not yours). Israel did not declare war on Palestinians, Jordanians, Egyptians and Lebonese in 1948. these arab countries did. Jewish Israelis live in the most dangerous part of the world (for them).

So calling them a terrorist state conveniently ignores the actual environment on the ground.

How Israel was formed is perfectly relevant when they're still behaving the exact same in that regard, as indicated by the events that have caused this thread to be started.

Letting the Stern gang and Irgun run a state makes as much sense as letting ISIS run a state.

No it's not. Otherwise using your logic, Canada and Australia should also be declared terrorist states (which is an argument native people use).

When's the last time Canada or Australia committed a terrorist attack like what Israel just did in Lebanon?

You're comparing unequal patterns of behaviour as though they were equal and trying to act like that clearly faulty logic somehow makes a solid point. But, if you can name an analogous action from recent memory I'll be obliged to condemn it.

that's like saying rape or murder has a statute of limitations? Calling Israel a terrorist state based on how they were founded means Canada and Australia fall into the same bracket. I think you are intelligent enough to understand this simple analogy.

What Israel are doing now is based on their using both military, policing and intelligence to outwit a perpetual enemy who are not going to go away. Israel's decision to rescue hostages has resulted in 34,344 Palestinians losing their lives which is a human rights violation against Palestinian people. And yes, the deaths of hundreds of Palestinian civilians at the hands of the IDF is also a violation except for when Israel was invaded. Has Israel used terror to quell uprisings, yes they have. Are they are terrorist state. yes, they use terror to control insurgency. But by that definition so are every single Arab country in the middle east and every South American and Asian country. that is why the label is irrelevant. Saudi Arabia and Iran are terrorist states, But they still trade with us. We love the Saudis so much because of their oil and turn a blind eye to their terrorising their own people.