Kyle Rittenhouse trial
Dox47 wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
In an adversarial system, it is actually considered to be their duty to rigorously work their side of the argument, irregardless of the truth. No cynicism required.
That's not how prosecutors are supposed to operate however, they are supposed to seek justice, but in practice they often go all out to "win" regardless, which is why they occupy a place just above child molesters in my personal esteem.
Mom should know this.
Dox47 wrote:
I'm aware that they are needed for the legal system to function, but I can't help but feel that a person has to have something fundamentally wrong with them to go into a career where their job is to imprison their fellow man, where in fact their metric for success is how accomplished they are at getting convictions and harsh sentences, to say I find them distasteful is a massive understatement. They have every advantage, from what charges are filed and how they're presented to the full power of the US government and its limitless resources to sentencing recommendations in the even of a conviction or plea, and yet they still play dirty, as has been seen in this case by the rebukes from the bench.
TheRobotLives wrote:
... It's almost like this new "evidence" of provocation suddenly appeared.
Or that the defense decided to not use it themselves out of fear of further incriminating their client.I have $100 riding on an appeal being filed within one business day of a conviction, and another $50 to $90 riding on a conviction of at least one of the charges.
We shall see what tomorrow brings...
Fnord wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
... It's almost like this new "evidence" of provocation suddenly appeared.
Or that the defense decided to not use it themselves out of fear of further incriminating their client.I have $100 riding on an appeal being filed within one business day of a conviction, and another $50 to $90 riding on a conviction of at least one of the charges.
We shall see what tomorrow brings...
Good luck.
Dox47 wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Mmhmm. I'm sure you've carried & shared the exact same consistent unbiased opinion for every black American who's been harshly sentenced over the course of your lifetime and that kyle rittenhouse isn't an exception for any particular reason or another.
Yes, I've been very consistent about this far longer than I've been posting here. Also, you might want to rethink that racist insinuation, I'm really not the person you want to try that on.
OUCH!
TheRobotLives wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
If you had been watching the trial, you would have seen the prosecution zooming in onr portions of the video and claiming it showed something - The higher resolution the source image, the easier it is to prove\disprove something (in this case whether Mr Rittenhouse pointed his gun at someone immediately prior to being pursued by Mr Rosenbaum), whilst in a lower resolution version, the defence would lack the ability to defend against such a claim, lacking the same quality images to work with.
This was a shocker to me.
That video evidence suddenly appeared during the prosecutor's closing arguments that Rittenhouse is such a menace, that he was pointing his rifle at people , threatening to kill them, before any of these events started.
It's almost like this new "evidence" of provocation suddenly appeared.
Assuming you are accurate:
Stupid kid.
Pepe wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
If you had been watching the trial, you would have seen the prosecution zooming in onr portions of the video and claiming it showed something - The higher resolution the source image, the easier it is to prove\disprove something (in this case whether Mr Rittenhouse pointed his gun at someone immediately prior to being pursued by Mr Rosenbaum), whilst in a lower resolution version, the defence would lack the ability to defend against such a claim, lacking the same quality images to work with.
This was a shocker to me.
That video evidence suddenly appeared during the prosecutor's closing arguments that Rittenhouse is such a menace, that he was pointing his rifle at people , threatening to kill them, before any of these events started.
It's almost like this new "evidence" of provocation suddenly appeared.
Assuming you are accurate:
Stupid kid.
Accuracy doesn't matter.
This was what was told to jurors.
_________________
Then a hero comes along, with the strength to carry on, and you cast your fears aside, and you know you can survive.
Be the hero of your life.
TheRobotLives wrote:
Pepe wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
If you had been watching the trial, you would have seen the prosecution zooming in onr portions of the video and claiming it showed something - The higher resolution the source image, the easier it is to prove\disprove something (in this case whether Mr Rittenhouse pointed his gun at someone immediately prior to being pursued by Mr Rosenbaum), whilst in a lower resolution version, the defence would lack the ability to defend against such a claim, lacking the same quality images to work with.
This was a shocker to me.
That video evidence suddenly appeared during the prosecutor's closing arguments that Rittenhouse is such a menace, that he was pointing his rifle at people , threatening to kill them, before any of these events started.
It's almost like this new "evidence" of provocation suddenly appeared.
Assuming you are accurate:
Stupid kid.
Accuracy doesn't matter.
This was what was told to jurors.
You said "video evidence".
Did you see the video?
Pepe wrote:
You said "video evidence".
Did you see the video?
Did you see the video?
No. I don't know if anyone saw it.
It's the FBI infrared overview video.
It's hard to make out.
Somehow the prosecutor saw Rittenhouse doing this when he zoomed in on a video frame.
The prosecutor did not show this image to the jury during closing arguments, however, still asserted Rittenhouse was doing this.
That's Bric's point, suddenly "evidence" is appearing based on the prosecutor's zoom of a video.
_________________
Then a hero comes along, with the strength to carry on, and you cast your fears aside, and you know you can survive.
Be the hero of your life.
TheRobotLives wrote:
Pepe wrote:
You said "video evidence".
Did you see the video?
Did you see the video?
No. I don't know if anyone saw it.
It's the FBI infrared overview video.
It's hard to make out.
Somehow the prosecutor saw Rittenhouse doing this when he zoomed in on a video frame.
The prosecutor did not show this image to the jury during closing arguments, however, still asserted Rittenhouse was doing this.
That's Bric's point, suddenly "evidence" is appearing based on the prosecutor's zoom of a video.
That sounds a bit like trying to manipulate the mindset of the jury.
Just saying something doesn't make it so.
That is why I, like Fnord, want to see the "evidence".
I gather the zoomed in picture wasn't conclusive?
Pepe wrote:
I gather the zoomed in picture wasn't conclusive?
Imagine zooming into the grainy image below and concluding Rittenhouse was pointing his rifle at someone and this triggered (provoked Rosenbaum) ....
It seems like a quite a leap.
However, that didn't stop the prosecutor. He presented it as fact.
_________________
Then a hero comes along, with the strength to carry on, and you cast your fears aside, and you know you can survive.
Be the hero of your life.
TheRobotLives wrote:
Pepe wrote:
I gather the zoomed in picture wasn't conclusive?
Imagine zooming into the grainy image below and concluding Rittenhouse was pointing his rifle at someone and this triggered (provoked Rosenbaum) ....
It seems like a quite a leap.
However, that didn't stop the prosecutor. He presented it as fact.
Hardly conclusive, assuming this is the actual image used by the prosecution.
It looks like more lawyer BS.
I think Mom should consider this, the next time she downsizes a video file.
Dox47 wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
In an adversarial system, it is actually considered to be their duty to rigorously work their side of the argument, irregardless of the truth. No cynicism required.
That's not how prosecutors are supposed to operate however, they are supposed to seek justice, but in practice they often go all out to "win" regardless, which is why they occupy a place just above child molesters in my personal esteem. I'm aware that they are needed for the legal system to function, but I can't help but feel that a person has to have something fundamentally wrong with them to go into a career where their job is to imprison their fellow man, where in fact their metric for success is how accomplished they are at getting convictions and harsh sentences, to say I find them distasteful is a massive understatement. They have every advantage, from what charges are filed and how they're presented to the full power of the US government and its limitless resources to sentencing recommendations in the even of a conviction or plea, and yet they still play dirty, as has been seen in this case by the rebukes from the bench.
I admit I was struggling with the exact role of prosecutors and how the rigorous argument concept applies to them when I wrote the above. Prosecutors do have to care about justice; I don’t know what gets amended in their training to work that side. But as an overall statement of how our legal system dynamics work, what I wrote applies.
_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
TheRobotLives wrote:
Pepe wrote:
I gather the zoomed in picture wasn't conclusive?
Imagine zooming into the grainy image below and concluding Rittenhouse was pointing his rifle at someone and this triggered (provoked Rosenbaum) ....
It seems like a quite a leap.
However, that didn't stop the prosecutor. He presented it as fact.
The argument was based on a single frame? I posted earlier how I feel about single frame moment of time shots: not conclusive.
This single frame was talked about but not shown in court? Or was it shown? All I can think is that if it was reliable, it would have been in the original case. I would think that where the gun was pointed would be too important to a prosecution case to not harp on from the start. So … bizarre and suspicious.
What a mess of a trial. The deceased deserved better. They deserved the truth, whatever that may be.
_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
Pepe wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Pepe wrote:
You said "video evidence".
Did you see the video?
Did you see the video?
No. I don't know if anyone saw it.
It's the FBI infrared overview video.
It's hard to make out.
Somehow the prosecutor saw Rittenhouse doing this when he zoomed in on a video frame.
The prosecutor did not show this image to the jury during closing arguments, however, still asserted Rittenhouse was doing this.
That's Bric's point, suddenly "evidence" is appearing based on the prosecutor's zoom of a video.
That sounds a bit like trying to manipulate the mindset of the jury.
Just saying something doesn't make it so.
That is why I, like Fnord, want to see the "evidence".
I gather the zoomed in picture wasn't conclusive?
The prosecution's claim relies on a still image taken from new drone footage.
Here is the judge looking at the prosecution's (higher resolution) copy of the video on a 4k screen, with Mr Krauss using a pointer to indicate where the relevent portion appears:
Here is the zoomed portion of the frame (still from image and "cleaned up" version:
Images taken from https://www.wisconsinrightnow.com/2021/11/14/provocation-rittenhouse/
The prosecutors claim that he was pointing his rifle at someone off the left of the frame, but who they did not include in the zoomed portion... The defence's version of the video was 1/4 the number of pixels both horizontally and vertically, preventing them from being able to see any details in this area... The red traffic light makes a good reference point for both where the still image comes from, and how small the relevent portion is in the footage.
As I understood the argument, the prosecution claim the bright dot on Mr Rittenhouse's left is his hand holding his rifle up\supporting it while he aims, which would not be able to be seen in the lower resolution footage - When the video is watched (rather than using an individual frame), the dot is there before and after he moves, and appears to be a mirror fitted to the outside of the vehicle.
If you skip to around 13:42 of the first video under the heading "Judge Schroeder Takes a Look for Himself" on https://lawofselfdefense.com/rittenhouse-trial-day-8-the-prosecutions-last-desperate-lunge-for-evidence-of-guilt/, you can see some of what the higher quality footage shows, and how small the portion they are looking at is (the video can be seen from 10:16 to 10:30 on the video below "In any case, here’s the direct examination of Armstrong by ADA Kraus:" at https://lawofselfdefense.com/rittenhouse-trial-day-6-states-autopsy-expert-supports-self-defense-narrative-in-another-disastrous-prosecution-day/).
The video was also provided to the defence through dropbox, so there would have been no size constraints requiring a lower resolution version. The resolution difference between prosecution and defence was only discovered during the final day of the trial (after defence had rested their case) when the judge was being shown the video - the defence stated there was a problem with their copy and Mr Kraus asked mentioned the prosecution's copy was "better quality" (or words to that extent) and stated the resolution of the video while asking for the 4k television to view it on, rather than a standard screen.
Pepe wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
The fact a lower resolution version existed (or was created) would not alter the fact that the higher resolution version would still be required to be turned over (confirmed by at least a dozen lawtube members - at least 2 former prosecutors included).
Uh, no it doesn't. But if a TubeSite says so, it MUST be true!
And again, you can't just SAY "it hurteded my case!" You do have to DEMONSTRATE that the video did in fact have relevant details in the higher resolution copy that QUANTIFIABLY HARMED the defense.
It's pretty wild, that as worthless as you claim my statements are, you sure devote an awful lot of time and effort to frantically trying to discredit them. And me.
I've studied law. Formally, by trained professionals. I've defended my self in court, successfully. I do all of my own legal filings. I've won cases against government agencies. Bluster and posture to your little heart's content.
EVEN IF your claim holds water, it's still not WITHHOLDING evidence, as you so adamantly shot out of the gate. Even if you roll with it and play the "uh, duh, that's totally what I meant, and it's still bad!" doesn't change the fact that you're already eroded your own credibility. Not to mention misspelling key legal terms, it undermines your credibility regarding the specific matter - that being the interpretation of the rule of law.
AT WORST it MIGHT be evidence tampering or failure to properly disclose. I'm sure the leegul eksport knows this, but you MUST be EXACT when working with court filings. You cannot file a motion of withholding evidence, and then simply say "I mean tampering, wait, I mean disclosure!". You MUST select the right procedural claim for it to stick. You CAN make a filing for withholding anyways. And then the judge says "it wasn't withholding". And then you can make a NEW filing AFTER that for the next complaint. But that makes you look incompetent, and is a waste of time, and if you were worth your salt you'd file the CORRECT claim that would actually STICK. Anything less is stalling or whining.
I appreciate your little smear campaign. Your need to discredit me personally, speaks worlds. "HeS tHe GuY tHaT sAiD tHeSe ThInGs In ThEsE oThEr ThReAdS, DoNt LiStEnTo HiM! HeS a MeAnIe PoOpIe HeAd WhO kIcKs PuPpIeS!"
Calling me names doesn't magically make me become the things you're accusing me of.
If you're so right, you should be able to withstand the presence of dissenting voices or the scrutiny of others.
As for why two version exist of the video, these days it's common to send files electronically. There is often a size limit to the amount that can be emailed in a single file. It is not uncommon to downgrade the resolution or quality of documents, images, videos etc, in order to reduce the file sizes associated with them, and to facilitate transfer. This is so you're not trying to send massive amounts of data that might take unreasonably long time to transfer. You'll want it FAST.
The other option is physical copies, which has it's own set of complications. In either case, they asked for a copy of the video, they got a copy of the video. As soon as they got the video, if they felt it was too low of quality to be of use, they at that moment could have filed to have it struck from evidence, or asked if a higher resolution video existed, cos any lawyer worth their salt knows these things happen, and knows to ask these questions.
If the video were edited in length, had parts removed, or was altered in CONTENT in any way, then yes, tampering may apply. But if it was the EXACT video, but compressed to reduce file size, then that's completely allowable, and meets the legal bar for disclosure.
At this point, the defenSE can't simply say "but they're DIFFERENT!" - the defense must DEMONSTRATE in what way the video evidence harmed their ability to defend their client. "It made us look bad cos their copy looked better!" is NOT a valid defense. Either the video proves something, or it doesn't. You don't get to cry about how "theirs is better looking!"
And STILL NOT a matter of WITHHOLDING evidence.
Despite all the "of course lawyers LIE" rhetoric, the reality is, lawyers are generally held to extremely strict standards, and lying even a little bit generally gets you in a world of hurt. You'll note that the defense isn't claiming that it's not kyle at all, or that it wasn't kyle who did the shooting. The argument being presented is that it was necessary and justified, not that it never happened. Lawyers can interpret, but they cannot misrepresent mislead or lie. Some try, and pay dearly if they get caught.
As a lawyer, or any manner of legal defense, there is an obligation to be a zealous advocate for the interests of your client. But you can't LIE on their behalf, or knowingly allow them to lie, or instruct them to lie.
But yes. "Video was reduced in size / quality" WOWIE ZOWIE! Something typical, common, and normal happened! SuRe LoOkS sUsPiCiOuS! Cos that's what LawTube said. Well, it has the word "law" in it, so I'm sold
So, which tactic are you going to resort to now? Calling me names? Burying me in random links to websites that supposedly explain things FOR you as you look down your nose and say "figure it out"? Make more claims with no backing evidence other than "lawztoob told me so!"?
Granting some partial benefit of doubt, perhaps things work differently in australia. Even if that's the case, this is american law at work, in an american trial. If that's true, then you could fairly say that an australian trial would rule in the way you claim it would, but you still don't get to use that as a precedent for why it should apply in THIS case. You could arguably argue that it SHOULD be argued that way, but that's still completely different from the argument initially argued. And hopping around like that just comes of as moving goalposts.
Oh, and as for your complaint about me "diving into discussions" - you know that people can like, read the previous posts before commenting, right? (I'll save you the trouble of implying that I don't by pointing out the likelihood of you claiming that I don't - but you can feel free to try to sell it yourself if you like, too) Or, what, when a point pops up 18 pages in, am I supposed to go back in time and pre-emptively post earlier on the matter so I was "in on it" from an earlier time? I didn't realize there was a statute of limitations as to when you could join in to a discussion. That just sounds like policing the room to your benefit.
I will admit something utterly awful about myself though. As much fun as it is to watch small children with unshakable confidence, even when wrong, it's equally fun to watch adults with that same misplaced confidence. I know, I'm a monster.
But always with love and respect
Off Topic
Well, I will be using this post as a benchmark for acceptable sarcasm.
That's about all it was good for...