Mideast War blowback

Page 38 of 39 [ 619 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 35, 36, 37, 38, 39 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,167
Location: Long Island, New York

10 Dec 2024, 6:47 am

Jakki wrote:

It has really gotten this bad.....and unfortunately the world,seems to interchange the word Israeli with the word Jewish.
So if Israel has such a huge support, financially and otherwise.Coming from Non Israelis in the US .
And the Jewish population does not necessarily approve of Genocide ...? Then I am at a loss as to why,I kerp hearing about so much support from here.But if this is a similiar scenario in other countries.. Then you might think to
ask the same question of those People? So if Jewish people do not support the bad actors in Israel, why do I not read lots of reports about various places , synagoges, etc.stopping fundingIsrael.. Or other religious folks funding Israel .
( instead of using the middleeast as a test bed for our newest weapons made by our corporations)..IMHO
?how many different ways can you kill or blow up another human being ?
"So I am not for confusing a religion with a Independant Country or entity". But honestly this behaviour needs to be stopped by whatever means.. Sad that it is coming down to this .

. No money ,generally means less War on a mass scale .Very least an embargo ..? IMHO

AJC Survey Shows American Jews are Deeply and Increasingly Connected to Israel - June 10, 2024

Quote:

85% of American Jewish adults believe it is important for the U.S. to support Israel in the aftermath of October 7 and 57% of American Jews report feeling more connected to Israel or their Jewish identity after October 7 than before.

Other surveys I have read show similar results meaning these Jewish institutions are doing what their members want. Does that mean American Jews support every aspect of the war? No. Polling of American Jewish support of different aspects or even the war in general is lacking.

Often when a family member does something really bad like committing a crime, the family will still support that family member. Something similar is going on here. Add to that the religious aspect most Jewish prayer books mention Israel, Zion etc.

That means that to many opponents of the war if not of Israel itself most Jewish institutions are legitimate targets. There have been incidents where the line between antisemitism and anti zionism has been clearly crossed. Ripping a yamaka off a Jewish persons head, or telling a Jewish person to go back to Poland an apparent reference to the Auschwitz concentration camp.

Most other times the line is in the eyes of the beholder.
Example 1 confronting a person wearing a Star of David. Antisemitic because it is a Jewish Star or confronting a person complicit in genocide because the Star of David is the prominent symbol on the Israeli Flag?

Example 2 Holding a Pro Palestinian demonstration in front of a synagogue. Obviously antisemitic because it is a Jewish house of worship or obviously a legitimate target because they fundraise for Israel?

Example 3 Contributing to an Israeli charity. Helping people in need or complicity in genocide because it frees up money for the IDF because you are funding what Israeli government would have funded?

_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman

Jakki
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Sep 2019
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,217
Location: Outter Quadrant

10 Dec 2024, 1:58 pm

^^^^^^^^ SIGHES ^^^^^^^
all the above , just come together to afford an atrocious outcome for (seemingly) all countries involved

_________________
Diagnosed hfa
Loves velcro,

Quote:

where ever you go ,there you are

ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,167
Location: Long Island, New York

10 Dec 2024, 3:44 pm

San Francisco Hillel vandalized with violent, far-left graffiti

Quote:

San Francisco Hillel, a center for Jewish life serving university students across the city, was vandalized with violent graffiti carrying far-left messages late Sunday or early Monday.

SF Hillel said the vandal or vandals also “attempted to forcefully enter” the building, located about a block from S.F. State University.

Someone spray-painted “death to Western imperialism!” in all caps covering a garage door, as well as the word “Khaybar” over an SF Hillel sign. “Khaybar” apparently refers to the military victory in the Battle of Khaybar of early Muslims over Jews around 628 CE. It’s sometimes invoked by those calling for a return of Muslim military might and the destruction of Israel.

“‘Khaybar, Khaybar, oh Jews, the army of Mohammed will return!’ has been heard at numerous anti-Israel demonstrations around the world,” according to the Anti-Defamation League. “This chant can be perceived as a threat of armed violence or forcible expulsion against Jews today.”

Someone also spray-painted a red hammer and sickle, a symbol of communism, and a capital “A” inside a circle, a symbol of anarchism, under SF Hillel’s sign.

Hillels across the country have long been targeted by activists because of perceived ties to Israel. Since Oct. 7 of last year, attacks have intensified. Hillel buildings at Boston University, University of Texas at Austin, University of Michigan and University of Minnesota and the Houston Hillel, which serves multiple campuses, have been hit, among many others.

In general, Hillel International, the umbrella organization for campus Hillels, includes in its mission fostering a connection to Israel. Hillel is the largest and most visible campus organization for Jews in the world.

SF Hillel is located in a house on a residential block near S.F. State, but serves nine campuses including the University of San Francisco, UC Law and UCSF. It hosts Shabbat dinners and social events, connects students with counseling and helps low-income students with basic needs such as food.

Alongside a rise in pro-Palestinian campus protests over the past 14 months, a campaign to “Drop Hillel” has gained some traction, including at UC Santa Cruz. The anti-Zionist group Students for Justice in Palestine launched the campaign, Moment magazine has reported. The campaign’s goals include one to “delegitimize Hillel as a supposed authority on and arbiter of antisemitism on college campuses,” according to SJP.

A San Francisco State University spokesperson also described the vandalism as antisemitic.

The targeting of Hillel has been discussed earlier in this thread. What was not mentioned in the article is that Hillel sponsors Birthright trips to Israel. These are free 10 day exploratory trips for current or recent Jewish students designed to foster connections between young adult Jews and Israel.

Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,327
Location: New York City (Queens)

11 Dec 2024, 7:12 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Often when a family member does something really bad like committing a crime, the family will still support that family member. Something similar is going on here. Add to that the religious aspect most Jewish prayer books mention Israel, Zion etc.

That means that to many opponents of the war if not of Israel itself most Jewish institutions are legitimate targets. There have been incidents where the line between antisemitism and anti zionism has been clearly crossed. Ripping a yamaka off a Jewish persons head, or telling a Jewish person to go back to Poland an apparent reference to the Auschwitz concentration camp.

Most other times the line is in the eyes of the beholder.
Example 1 confronting a person wearing a Star of David. Antisemitic because it is a Jewish Star or confronting a person complicit in genocide because the Star of David is the prominent symbol on the Israeli Flag?

I would say it makes a difference whether the Star of David is by itself or on a background of horizontal stripes reminiscent of the Israeli flag. For example, a Pride flag with a Star of David on it has caused consternation at some LGBTQ+ Pride events, due to the background of horizontal stripes. (A Pride flag with a menorah on it would have been better.)

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Example 2 Holding a Pro Palestinian demonstration in front of a synagogue. Obviously antisemitic because it is a Jewish house of worship or obviously a legitimate target because they fundraise for Israel?

Depends what's going on at the synagogue at the moment. Protesting during a worship service? Clear anti-Jewish bigotry. But the last time I recall hearing about a protest outside a synagogue, the event being protested was a commercial real estate event selling land/housing to prospective West Bank or East Jerusalem settlers.

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Example 3 Contributing to an Israeli charity. Helping people in need or complicity in genocide because it frees up money for the IDF because you are funding what Israeli government would have funded?

Depends what kind of charity. There are quite a few "charities" whose specific purpose is to help West Bank settlers build settlements. See the separate thread Israeli settler support infrastructure here in the U.S.A.

_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 11 Dec 2024, 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,327
Location: New York City (Queens)

11 Dec 2024, 7:26 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:

San Francisco Hillel vandalized with violent, far-left graffiti

Quote:

[Sigh!] What on Earth does anyone think this chant accomplishes?

Seems to me that such a chant is NOT helpful at all, IMO, especially here in the U.S.A. Besides making Jews feel menaced as Jews (thus making Jews feel like they need Israel all the more), it also makes the Palestinian cause look, to most American onlookers, like just a spat about religion, and also makes Muslims look bad.

Jakki
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Sep 2019
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,217
Location: Outter Quadrant

11 Dec 2024, 1:44 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:

Seems to me that such a chant is NOT helpful at all, IMO, especially here in the U.S.A. Besides making Jews feel menaced as Jews (thus making Jews feel like they need Israel all the more), it also makes the Palestinian cause look, to most American onlookers, like just a spat about religion, and also makes Muslims look bad.

Not sure I can agree with all of the above quote . the chanting helps a few to express frustrations .Am pretty sure
thinking humans may see beyond the religious spat aspects of Israels actions . and realizing this has gone way beyond
a spat...Perhaps so e remote degree of understanding could have been possible,of Israel, if they had not decided to
move civilians into the line of fire on the Gaza Palestinian side. So in essence if you have been observing this with a open mind ,( it would be fairly clear) that Israel is using its own people as human sheilds that are being called settlors.
Why would you move your population into a active War zone..? But when Israel decided to expand its genocide into other countries.. The memories of what transpired in WW2 become a curious memory in comparison.
These things are not fantasy or imaginings of one side or the other..These are the facts as presented in all the reports presented here on WP.
But all of you may feel free to speculate, while if it was your friend or neighbour killed by an obsessive genocidal country
Your point of veiw might chsnge , or maybe at the very least have more level point of veiw about these activity reports.
And if you understand about the vslue of seaside resl estate,it might even appear as a illegal land grab.

At the very least m Israel might gain a new Port city on the ocean .

_________________
Diagnosed hfa
Loves velcro,

Quote:

where ever you go ,there you are

funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 29,420
Location: Right over your left shoulder

11 Dec 2024, 1:52 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:

I strongly agree. Being abusive towards our Jewish countrymen does nothing beneficial for the Palestinian cause while also reinforcing the idea that Jews can't really feel safe or at home in their own countries and therefore need Israel.

_________________
I was ashamed of myself when I realised life was a costume party and I attended with my real face
"Many of us like to ask ourselves, What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?' The answer is, you're doing it. Right now." —Former U.S. Airman (Air Force) Aaron Bushnell

ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,167
Location: Long Island, New York

11 Dec 2024, 7:11 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

Mona Pereth wrote:

I don’t think helping the Palestinians is the point, driving the Jews out is the point. We, me included are guilty of using “Pro Palestinian” to describe every action covered in this thread when for some involved the agenda resembles the original Hamas charter.

ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,167
Location: Long Island, New York

11 Dec 2024, 7:12 pm

At Amsterdam attack trial, prosecutor claims violence ‘not motivated by antisemitism’

Quote:

Prosecutors on Wednesday called for two years in jail for a man suspected of punching and kicking Israeli soccer fans in Amsterdam during the first day of the trial over the night of violence that sparked accusations of antisemitism.

The 22-year-old, identified as Sefa O, was one of five suspects appearing before an Amsterdam court on charges relating to the rampage following a November 7 match between Ajax Amsterdam and Maccabi Tel Aviv in the Dutch capital.

Police said they were investigating at least 45 people over the violence. Some social media posts had included calls to “hunt Jews,” according to police. The attacks followed two days of skirmishes that also saw Maccabi fans chant anti-Arab songs, vandalize a taxi and burn a Palestinian flag.

The court saw images of a man alleged to be O kicking a person on the ground, chasing targets and punching people in the head and the body. The suspect played a “leading role” in the violence which “had little to do with football,” the prosecutor alleged.

However, the prosecutor averred: “In this case, there was no evidence of… a terrorist intent and the violence was not motivated by antisemitic sentiment.”

“The violence was influenced by the situation in Gaza, not by antisemitism,” claimed the prosecutor.

The five men, ranging in age from 19 to 32, are facing a three-judge bench at the Amsterdam District Court in staggered appearances. Two more suspects are to appear on Thursday as well as a third man whose case spilled over on Wednesday.

Antisemitism impacts 64% of American Jewish women's life, work and relationships - report

Quote:

A report released on Wednesday by Hadassah, the Women’s Zionist Organization of America revealed the pervasiveness of antisemitism for American Jewish women, impacting every facet of their academic, professional, and social lives.

Hadassah conducted a survey of more than 1,000 women over the past two years, starting before October 7, asking about their experiences with antisemitism.

Key findings drawn from 800 of those surveyed show 62% of Jewish women reported feeling physically or psychologically unsafe, 52% reported hiding being Jewish, 33% experienced hate speech because of their Jewish or Zionist identity, and 22% of Jewish women surveyed were excluded from groups or events because of their Jewish or Zionist identity.

“Antisemitism rose by 140% last year, so Hadassah asked, ‘What does that really mean?’ Now we know the heartbreaking truth,” Hadassah National President Carol Ann Schwartz said in a statement.

“It means that here, in America, in 2024, nearly two-thirds of Jewish women we surveyed feel unsafe because being Jewish makes them a target, and nearly half have taken steps to hide who they are. Every day, Jewish women are suffering in silence, isolation, and fear as they live in the shadows of hate.”

The report included stories and direct quotes from respondents about their experiences of feeling isolated and excluded, afraid and anxious, and threatened and harassed.

Experiences of American Jewish women.
“I’ve certainly lost people in my social circle for being openly Jewish,” wrote one woman.
“I have been wanting to drop out of college due to the antisemitism I have faced. Fellow students are glorifying suicide,” another said.

“I was physically attacked at a rally, and my Israeli flag was stolen and burnt in front of me,” someone else wrote, with another saying her house was egged earlier this year for displaying a flag supporting Israel.

One woman said she doesn’t feel safe and that her friends think she’s imagining her fear.
However, Hadassah also reported Jewish women feeling resilient and determined to stand up against antisemitism.

“My initial reaction was to be afraid and hide, but I thought about my relatives who were killed in the Holocaust, and it empowered me to become a fighter instead,” a woman said in the report.

What I would like to know is which Jewish women were surveyed. If they were Hadassah members as advocates they are more likely to get blowback. Same is true if they live in urban areas or near elite colleges.

funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 29,420
Location: Right over your left shoulder

11 Dec 2024, 10:51 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

Mona Pereth wrote:

I agree that's likely relevant as a motive, but also believe it shouldn't be identified as pro-Palestinian.

I can see why anti-Palestinian blocs might identify it as pro-Palestinian, but pro-Palestinian blocs would be wise to pushback against that identification and against antisemitic behaviour that's done in the name of the Palestinian cause.

Conflating antisemitism and pro-Palestinian motives as being one and the same only serves to benefit the anti-Palestinian cause.

Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,327
Location: New York City (Queens)

12 Dec 2024, 6:31 am

Jakki wrote:

Mona Pereth wrote:

Not sure I can agree with all of the above quote . the chanting helps a few to express frustrations .

I'm sure it does help people express frustrations -- but not in a way that would help most American onlookers understand what their frustrations are all about.

Problem is, the U.S. media have tended to be so dominated by pro-Israel propaganda that many Americans really have no idea what the "Arab-Israeli conflict" is all about. Many Americans believe that the conflict is solely about Israel, "the only democracy in the Middle East" (as Israel is commonly described in Zionist propaganda), needing to defend itself against "Muslim terrorists," whom many Americans believe are motivated solely by "antisemitism" and/or a desire to shove a strict version of Islam down everyone's throat. I'm pretty sure that most Americans still are almost completely unaware of the ongoing displacement of Palestinians, and are almost completely unaware of the conditions under which many Palestinians live. (See the thread What life is like for Palestinians here on Wrong Planet.) And a typical American reaction to the whole "West Bank settler" issue is likely to be, "Why shouldn't Israeli Jews have the right to live wherever they want?"

I myself didn't understand the Palestinian POV at all until only a few years ago, when I was patiently educated by a Palestinian here on Wrong Planet and then took the time to research relevant issues online.

Jakki wrote:

Am pretty sure thinking humans may see beyond the religious spat aspects of Israels actions

Sadly, most Americans have little motive to devote even a few brain cells to thinking about it.

Jakki
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Sep 2019
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,217
Location: Outter Quadrant

12 Dec 2024, 8:42 am

Quote from above MPs post:
Jakki wrote:
Am pretty sure thinking humans may see beyond the religious spat aspects of Israels actions

Sadly, most Americans have little motive to devote even a few brain cells to thinking about it.

The irony of whats written above does not escape me ...Especially since the US it appears that the US is complicit in
a big part of Israels military actions . So perhaps this lack of awareness by the US population is intentional .
One might never consider that our US Media can be as much of a propaganda machine as any one of the biggest
countries. And media can do this ,as much by reporting on things as much as NOT reporting on things .And so
alot of this reporting or not reporting is also controlled , virtually by threats of removing funding from any particular broadcast station,etc. Either from ( public) Government or private . Please note: That for years the media in the US
( the big names) generally have also been controlled by the Jewish community . Names of production companies , many actors etc. ( eg. Metro Goldwyn Meyer) more obvious one . Personally grew up in and around the music and TV industry
It would be nice if USA people might educate themselves about the rest of the world. IMHO

_________________
Diagnosed hfa
Loves velcro,

Quote:

where ever you go ,there you are

Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,327
Location: New York City (Queens)

12 Dec 2024, 9:19 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Problem is, many Palestinians may well feel that "driving the Jews out" is the only way to get their land back, or even to end the ever-looming slow-motion eviction of Palestinians in the West Bank.

That's certainly not the best solution. Hopefully a way will be found to attain a solution more like the ending of Apartheid in South Africa, or perhaps a multi-faith democracy similar to Lebanon (which would probably function a whole lot better if Israel/Palestine too were organized similarly). And it is my impression that most Palestinians would gladly accept such a solution if they could be assured that Israeli Jews would actually abide by it -- and that's the big if.

Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,327
Location: New York City (Queens)

12 Dec 2024, 10:37 am

Jakki wrote:

One might never consider that our US Media can be as much of a propaganda machine as any one of the biggest
countries. And media can do this ,as much by reporting on things as much as NOT reporting on things .And so
alot of this reporting or not reporting is also controlled , virtually by threats of removing funding from any particular broadcast station,etc. Either from ( public) Government or private . Please note: That for years the media in the US
( the big names) generally have also been controlled by the Jewish community . Names of production companies , many actors etc. ( eg. Metro Goldwyn Meyer) more obvious one . Personally grew up in and around the music and TV industry

This is an overly simplistic explanation of American media bias, IMO.

Although the mass media, and especially the entertainment industry, has been disproportionately Jewish-dominated, the mass media aren't all Jewish-owned. For example, CBS was founded by Arthur Judson, who was Episcopalian. And even a lot of media companies with Jewish founders were eventually bought out by conglomerates that are not primarily Jewish-owned.

Also, Jewish influence isn't the only reason why Americans traditionally support Zionism. Two other reasons are:

1) The U.S.A. has a long tradition of Christian Zionism that long predates even the founding of Jewish Zionism as an organized political movement. (See separate thread on Christian Zionism.)

2) Israel managed to sell itself to the U.S. foreign policy establishment as a valuable potential ally in the Middle East.

Jakki
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Sep 2019
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,217
Location: Outter Quadrant

12 Dec 2024, 10:49 am

Quote from above by MP:
This is an overly simplistic explanation of American media bias, IMO.

Although the mass media, and especially the entertainment industry, has been disproportionately Jewish-dominated, the mass media aren't all Jewish-owned. For example, CBS was founded by Arthur Judson, who was Episcopalian. And even a lot of media companies with Jewish founders were eventually bought out by conglomerates that are not primarily Jewish-owned.

Also, Jewish influence isn't the only reason why Americans traditionally support Zionism. Two other reasons are:

1) The U.S.A. has a long tradition of Christian Zionism that long predates even the founding of Jewish Zionism as an organized political movement

2) Israel managed to sell itself to the U.S. foreign policy establishment as a valuable potential ally in the Middle East.
********. ***********************************************
All of this was supported by media manipulation ,from my perspective .
And Yes it is a overly simplified explaination intentionally , due to the fact that most people do not seem to be willing to indulge in the details .
And no by no means are all media are owned by believers in the Judaic faith, but most of the biggest ones have been,
from my observations overtime .

One wonders if all those Christian Zionist , would be as supportive of Israel today, especially after considering that Jesus was born in Palestine . But this does not get into the media . It doesn't seem to support the narrative.?

_________________
Diagnosed hfa
Loves velcro,

Quote:

where ever you go ,there you are

Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,327
Location: New York City (Queens)

12 Dec 2024, 12:04 pm

Jakki wrote:

All of this was supported by media manipulation ,from my perspective .

Christian churches have long had their own media, separate from the mass media. Additionally, the evangelical Christian subculture has long had a large "parachurch" media scene, independent of both the mass media and the churches. (For example, there was an evangelical Christian radio station that my mother used to listen to when I was growing up.)

Jakki wrote:

And Yes it is a overly simplified explaination intentionally , due to the fact that most people do not seem to be willing to indulge in the details .

Best not to oversimplify on this issue. To do so comes across as Jew-hating, which is not helpful.

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 12 Dec 2024, 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Page 38 of 39 [ 619 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 35, 36, 37, 38, 39 Next

Jump to:

Mideast War blowback Post Reply New Topic

Mideast War blowback