The Body Positive and Fat Acceptance Movement

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I must confess, I was never a big fan of pineapple.

@Kraichgauer: "I'm not trolling. I actually just prefer meat. If you don't, that's your choice, and I'll respect it."

Quick open-ended question: Do you respect a Drug Addict their choice of lifestyle, or would you rather they change?

That is the problem, I don't respect your choice and am just trying to show you logically and morally why I do not. Since this is a forum, I am also expecting that people might actually want to engage in debate on such matters. I have no interest in hearing about what meat you prefer more. I used to like steak best. Now it would probably taste gross to me because my tastebuds have changed.

Do you not think eating meat has no possible consequences? That is what is getting to me. If someone calls you to task on something, it is pretty weak to hide behind, "well, I just like it!" But the openended question at the beginning of this post should help sort that out. Then we can know whether to bother going over it or not. You can not talk morality to a person who does not ever care. It just flops.

That fat lady on the bus, she takes up more resources. That is not fair to everyone else. It is her behaviors that lead down that road. Wake up Man!! ! If you are overweight, it is your fault, no one else's (well, in society that proposition can get complicated, but the principle is there).

All done.

Then I suggest you keep your opinions about food to yourself. If I'm going to die from what I eat, at least I'll die happy.
You know what the difference between a hipster poser and a genuine bohemian is - other than that one is a poser, and the other is the real artsy, countercultural thing? A hipster will make self-righteous and pretentious pronouncements about how being a vegan makes them morally superior, whereas a bohemian will eat anything, and pretty much live and let live.

It is complicated because there are often genetic predespositions involved. Which means while it is the fat person is the reason the fat person is fat they may not have the ability to do much about it, similar to autism in that regard. A free society means having to put up with the unfairness of negative consequences due to peoples decisions to a certain extent.

having battled my weight all my life, I cannot engage in fat-shaming other than to say that excess weight [from my own experience] is harder on the joints than average weight.

Of the things that concern me, someone being overweight isn't even on the list. People need to mind their own fricking business.

Also people who fuss and fret all the time over stuff like that are also doing tremendous physical harm to themselves and killing themselves. Look up how being pissed off all the time contributes to heart disease as much as eating a steak.

Speaking of steak, I had the best steak dinner at the Buzz Inn up in Bellingham last weekend.

Bill, idk how it is in Spokane, but the hipster types in Seattle and the Eastside can get pretty annoying.

I've seen more real bohemians in Spokane than hipsters, but I imagine they're hiding in the woodwork.

[quote=Kraichgauer]
Then I suggest you keep your opinions about food to yourself. If I'm going to die from what I eat, at least I'll die happy.
You know what the difference between a hipster poser and a genuine bohemian is - other than that one is a poser, and the other is the real artsy, countercultural thing? A hipster will make self-righteous and pretentious pronouncements about how being a vegan makes them morally superior, whereas a bohemian will eat anything, and pretty much live and let live.
[/quote]

Keep my oppinions to myself, or what? You will... what? Flambey me with your words? Anger is a secondary emotion indicating that someone has done you wrong and one wishes to regain control. What wrong have I done you? I reframed your "lifestyle choice", you know, those things that actually do not cause yourself or others harm [religion, sexual orientation, dress...], and put it squarely back to what it should be, a stigma.

I never said anything about being countercultural. I am an Aspie, I probably do not have cognitive empathy, so I do not give two craps half the time what the "in-crowd" believes in or digs. Could care less.

I am morally superior on this one because the position is superior. That is how morality works. Sorry for the progress report on that one. I know it can be hard for some to take some times. Your anger mearly proves that the superior position is getting through to you, and it bugs you.

Going over the whole Bohemian thing / Hipster et al. stuff, that is like a kind of stealth ad hominem attack, which is hillarious. Funny how anger and ad hom go hand in hand. Just so that we are perfectly clear on what this is like by analogy. Imagine we were playing chess, and then, seeing you will loose, you start pounding the table like a little baby. I am not calling you a baby, nope, but it is soooo close right?

I assure you, I mean you no harm, and only the very best good sir. I will not be threatened with silence for merely social reasons. My version of being social is following the rules. I don't have to care about your feelings. I don't have to respect your choices (do you respect a theif for choosing to take your stuff, "but they enjoy it so much, jerk").

Any, of the, so called, "self-righteous and pretentious pronouncements", I am willing to debate about ad nauseum with you, are you? Hell, I do not care, let's figure it out together. That btw, is how you actually give ideas a fair shake. Honest appraisal, not quick dismissal.

Or was the intention of everyone here singing kum ba yah while lamenting the miserable states of your collective self body images? That is what it seems like is the goal here.

@Kraichgauer: No, you will not die happy, that is ludicrous. Sure, you will enjoy your addiction at the dinner table, but that heart attack is going to suck. Colon cancer, get ready for impotency. You feel slow right now perhaps, no, it will catch up to you worse later. Then the addiction will make you die in a miserable way, because death and disease sucks. Stop lying to yourself.

clearly, not the WP rules.

Yes, lets talk about the WP rules. I think you are referring to this.

2. Personal attacks.
This includes insinuation, ridicule and personal insults, regardless of whether direct or indirect. Attacking an opinion, belief or philosophy is acceptable, but attacking the person making the comments is not.

I am attacking the opinion that being overweight is a lifestyle choice. I think, * in my own opinion *, if you are overweight, it is probably more like being a junky then being some _ poor unfortunate victim of fate _. Read that last with a huge dallop of sarcasm. Point of fact, I am directly attacking the main topic of the thread, because that is the one that got me all worked up in the first place.

Fat shaming, pshaw, telling a truth you do not want to hear about being fat, more like. I was fat too. It is 100% your choice to be fat if you have access to more nutritious food. So in come the NT-style internet shaming tactics ... (yawn) Your Jedi mind tricks do not work on me any more! They never really worked, they always just messed me up, but at least now I know how to respond. Thanks for trying.

I am attacking the do as you will philosophy. If I consider someone wrong on something, I am willing to back it up in a peaceful and respectful manner, are you? Look your own self in the mirror. When I look at myself, I see a great bod, as well as a person who just does not give two craps about others feelings when they are insane in the membrane.

I have never attacked, directly or indirectly, anyone here. Logic dictates that if eating meat is an addiction, a number of persons here would have to be junkies. Certainly do not celebrate this reality. The addiction question was to see if @Kraichgauer is a moralist [ his choice, which I would respect, kind of have to, unmoral people don't care either way ].

To give analogies further, I am the kid telling the Emporor he has no clothes on, certain members on this thread, as well as society in general, are the clothiers who fabricated the nothing arguments together for @Kraichgauer to "wrap" himself in. Instead of 'tapping out' on the argument, he goes for very minor implied threats himself, to let me know, "leave me alone".

Normally, out of respect, I would stop there, but larger society is rearing its ugly fascist head. The story goes, in comes the truth teller, out come the requisite collection of villagers with pitch forks and torches.

Instead of using your implements of torture to try to get me to comply, why don't you use some of those torches to light a fire of discovery in yourself. While your at it, why don't you check out how bad people are at reasoning in general. The internet should give some great examples. I hope it will make everyone here more humble as to their own reasoning abilities and open to other's viewpoints.

Did you guys honestly expect that someone would not have a problem with the "Fat Acceptance Movement"? Shocker, I know, that said person might actually have a point?

Oh well, If anyone here wants to actually engage intelligently on these topics, I am open to the challenge. If all you guys want to do is pat each other on the back about having a completely preventable disease, then I am just not interested.

It is possible to both hurt a fellow members feelings here, and still follow the WP rules. If you are honest with me, I will be soooo suportive, you have no idea. It is just intollerable to have to put up with public dogma.

Adult up people. If someone is owning you in an argument, fight back the way you are supposed to, with logic and empathy. Do you think because you have a strong opinion you should not have to defend it? Do you think you get to be less than honest just because someone said something that hurts your feelings? That is the time to be more honest, not less. I will leave off with this one last statement.

The Truth Hurts.

Keep my oppinions to myself, or what? You will... what? Flambey me with your words? Anger is a secondary emotion indicating that someone has done you wrong and one wishes to regain control. What wrong have I done you? I reframed your "lifestyle choice", you know, those things that actually do not cause yourself or others harm [religion, sexual orientation, dress...], and put it squarely back to what it should be, a stigma.

I never said anything about being countercultural. I am an Aspie, I probably do not have cognitive empathy, so I do not give two craps half the time what the "in-crowd" believes in or digs. Could care less.

I am morally superior on this one because the position is superior. That is how morality works. Sorry for the progress report on that one. I know it can be hard for some to take some times. Your anger mearly proves that the superior position is getting through to you, and it bugs you.

Going over the whole Bohemian thing / Hipster et al. stuff, that is like a kind of stealth ad hominem attack, which is hillarious. Funny how anger and ad hom go hand in hand. Just so that we are perfectly clear on what this is like by analogy. Imagine we were playing chess, and then, seeing you will loose, you start pounding the table like a little baby. I am not calling you a baby, nope, but it is soooo close right?

I assure you, I mean you no harm, and only the very best good sir. I will not be threatened with silence for merely social reasons. My version of being social is following the rules. I don't have to care about your feelings. I don't have to respect your choices (do you respect a theif for choosing to take your stuff, "but they enjoy it so much, jerk").

Any, of the, so called, "self-righteous and pretentious pronouncements", I am willing to debate about ad nauseum with you, are you? Hell, I do not care, let's figure it out together. That btw, is how you actually give ideas a fair shake. Honest appraisal, not quick dismissal.

Or was the intention of everyone here singing kum ba yah while lamenting the miserable states of your collective self body images? That is what it seems like is the goal here.

@Kraichgauer: No, you will not die happy, that is ludicrous. Sure, you will enjoy your addiction at the dinner table, but that heart attack is going to suck. Colon cancer, get ready for impotency. You feel slow right now perhaps, no, it will catch up to you worse later. Then the addiction will make you die in a miserable way, because death and disease sucks. Stop lying to yourself.[/quote]

No, you're not morally superior, you're just smug and pretentious.
And seriously, you say you have no cognitive empathy. Then why should you care if I die from eating meat? I think because it gives you the chance to be smug and pretentious, and to feel superior.
You go eating vegetables and fruits, while I'll actually enjoy my food. By the way, despite the long term consequences of eating meat, people who grow up eating meat have more muscularity and physical strength, whereas vegetarians have to take supplements for that, otherwise they are weak as kittens.

There's three couples in my overall family who became vegans. They also became super uptight and preachy, which took place on Facebook. Eventually they all gave it up and went back to normal and seemed a lot happier.

I know it is a sterotype of vegans. I wonder if the internet plays an exposure role in that?

Good for them.

{ You = Meat Eating Soc. @ Large / Myself in Past / Eponymous }

I gave up trying to convince anyone in my personal life (wrong arena) a while ago, but I do not feel bad about that, feel bad about people in my life who did not convert, I think less of them for it. Sorry, I do (except my Spouse, who did convert with me, he believes in Science and Empathy, so it was easier).

It is tough going through a change in perspective that later seems obvious. You are not a part of the culture you grew up in anymore. It is like growing up in a culture where murdering each other once a year is taken for granted, and you say, "uh, can we not do purge this year?"

So you find this amazing thing! And boy does it work. Pounds come off. You learn so many things it is amazing. Then you go, well, I do not want to be alone on this. But you know in your mind that this is not an easy sell. Still, the logic is solid and you have some faith in humanity. Thank you for disabusing me of my faith in humanity. I no longer have any. People are robots and they don't even know it.

So yeah, I gave up trying to be 'on' all the time about this, except the occasional online brow beating. Better to keep the truth to oneself; addicts just don't care. They don't care if they cause pain, they don't care if they help ruin the planet faster, they just, don't, care: they want their next fix.

For sure they also don't care if you don't act like an addict for a while. But they love pointing out members who return to the flock so they can feel better about it being "normal". How many times have I heard these very same lame sentiments in other contexts, I can not even tell you. I am going to be a Vegan until I die.

Anyone here that complained about the Vegan position in the past, do you want to talk actual sources? Actual logical and empathic reasoning... no... not interested? Why? If not... Lame. Typical. Weak.

Here is my take, because you are afraid to, because you are not stupid. You know you would get owned in that department, so instead you will use silly pysops tricks? So instead, Big Tobacco Company tricks come out. Instead of saddling up to the important questions, you run away and hide behind BS social sentiments. Science, Logic, Empathy, the rest is BS!

Suffice it to say, I hate the idea of You-Do-What-You-Want-I-Do-What-I-Want, it is only social. The statement only cares about getting along, most likely having a narcissistic element in it. In actual cases of freedom, it makes sense. On questions of importance that affect us all, even having controversy to them, it becomes less than
a useless intention, it becomes counterproductive.

Am I being preachy? Yep, but when the congregation are addicts and you are trying preach abstinence, there are bound to be rumblings in the crowd. So instead of going crazy, I will just laugh. Laugh at the injustice of being in the position of being logically and morally in the know, yet it not mattering one little bit. That is what the Vegans are screaming at you about, but you do not argue with them in good faith. And then to add insult to injury, you imply that they just want to be pushy. Yes, it is so so pushy pointing out unfortunate realities that people do not want to own up to.

People to me just seem to think they are not bound by decency when no one else around them is. Or is it some lemming thing I would never understand as an Aspie? Who knows.

This is the wrong planet for me for multiple reasons. Best planet would be some interesting admixture of Vulcan / Betazed Prime. Hot Vegan guys and girls all empathically eating Vegan and loving life. Kraichgauer, sorry bud, they don't want you.

In fact, they would love to mind-meld you with the animals you will kill for your meal tonight, out of spite. In fact, they say they "are positively happy with the notion of a bully getting their due" -- Hey, I am just reporting here, don't look at me. I know Vulcans are not supposed to have emotions, you just really upset them is all...

Do you guys think we are going to get to Star Trek days by living in the past?

Speaking of which, when I went to Idaho for a visit, it made me sick feeling. Billboard after billboard about "The Old West" and Cattle Country, and all of that. Celebrating a time when you were more likely to die in Child Birth then get a college education. No thanks. I will go Vegan, use the latest tech and be informed, and yep, I will feel righteous annoyance at those who choose to stick their head in the sand instead.

But I will not make arguing Veganism all of my life either. Other forum topics on here and elsewhere have actual discussions, not addicts patting each other on the back about being "normal".

Are you fat? Do you enjoy being fat? Why not choose to stop being an addict.

Go Vegan.

I think it's natural to eat meat. We were carnivores hunting mammoth before we were farmers. I also don't see the problem in being "fat." (I will assume fat includes anything over the optimum.) It's normal to get bigger as you get older. When I see frail ageing people worrying about their weight, I can't help but feel they are pathetic.