Baltimore: ALL Confederate Statues Have Now Been Removed

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ASPartOfMe
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11 Jun 2020, 2:35 pm

Cuomo declines to call for removal of Christopher Columbus statue

Quote:
New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) said he did not believe New York City’s statue of Christopher Columbus should be removed, citing the explorer’s cultural significance to Italian Americans.

Asked at his daily press briefing if it was “time for” the statue, which stands on a 27-foot column in Columbus Circle, “to go,” Cuomo responded, “I understand the dialogue that’s been going on for a number of years, [but] the Christopher Columbus statue in some way represents the Italian American legacy in this country and the Italian American contribution in this country,” although he conceded that “some of his acts … nobody would support.”

“The statue has come to represent and signify an appreciation for the Italian American contribution to New York,” he added.

Columbus statues have been targeted in Richmond, Va., where protesters threw a statue into the lake in the city’s Byrd Park, and Boston, where they removed the statue’s head. The cultural celebration of the explorer has long been criticized by Native American advocacy groups, who point out contemporaneous documentation of him ordering the torture, enslavement and killing of natives on the island of Hispaniola. Several cities have replaced the Columbus Day holiday with Indigenous People’s Day as a result.


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11 Jun 2020, 11:22 pm

Karamazov wrote:
Pepe wrote:
I hope they don't forget this one, in England. :mrgreen:

Quote:
LONDON —

BRITAIN : New Statue to Bomber Chief Raises German Ire

Old German and British war wounds have been reopened by a new controversy over a statue being erected in London to the officer whose bomber force rained explosives on Germany.

The statue commemorates Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Arthur Harris, Britain’s top bomber commander during World War II, who masterminded the RAF’s night bombing campaign over Germany.

Known as “Bomber Harris” for his single-minded execution of strategic bombing--characterized by mass raids with widespread devastation of major cities such as Cologne, Hamburg, Berlin, Wuerzburg and Dresden--Harris was called “The Butcher” by the Germans.

An estimated half a million Germans were killed in night bombing by British planes and in daylight raids by American aircraft. The efficiency of strategic area bombing has long been a subject of dispute. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html


Within months of a holocaust memorial being refused planning permission: Link to article (Jewish Chronicle)

I live in a very weird country don’t I?


I understand the left side of politics, in Britain, is considered broadly anti-semitic.

Could this have influenced the descision?
If not, any personal ideas why it would have been refused?



Pepe
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11 Jun 2020, 11:26 pm

Misslizard wrote:
They need to be removed for safety.Someone is going to get crushed trying to remove them.
Place them in the Confederate cemeteries.They shouldn’t be destroyed because they are a part of history.Unsavory history.They should now be a memorial to what existed in the past and should never happen again.


The assumption seems to be that all were inherently evil people.
Perhaps they simply lived in an unfortunate time and place in history.

Some people think that every German, during the war, was evil.
I'm not one of them. :wink:



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11 Jun 2020, 11:30 pm

envirozentinel wrote:
Apparently the first of those pictured was struck by lightning recently - probably by no means the first time owing to its shape.


Are you saying *god* thinks it's racist, also?! 8O



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11 Jun 2020, 11:32 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Tearing down Cristopher Columbus statues. The Goombah’s are not going to like it. “Hands up, don’t shoot” won’t work against the Mafia.

Before everybody gets all offended
1. The Mafia are vicious criminals that are overly glorified in the movies and the media.
2. 95 plus percent of Italian-American’s are not Mafia
3. When they are not at “work” they are very much into traditional families and their Italian heritage.

The Mafia is not what it once was and they very well may be well behind Antifa tech wise but if they can I can envision the Mafia putting hits on people who tear down Columbus statues.


Tread carefully, my friend,
Or you may find a horse head in your bed.
Hey,
That rhymes. :mrgreen:



funeralxempire
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12 Jun 2020, 1:23 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Tearing down Cristopher Columbus statues. The Goombah’s are not going to like it. “Hands up, don’t shoot” won’t work against the Mafia.

Before everybody gets all offended
1. The Mafia are vicious criminals that are overly glorified in the movies and the media.
2. 95 plus percent of Italian-American’s are not Mafia
3. When they are not at “work” they are very much into traditional families and their Italian heritage.

The Mafia is not what it once was and they very well may be well behind Antifa tech wise but if they can I can envision the Mafia putting hits on people who tear down Columbus statues.


Old goombah's vs street soldiers, my money's on the ones who aren't in depends. A dozen members of a family can't match a few vans filled with kids with AKs and SKs.

ANTIFA are irrelevant in this, ANTIFA doesn't kill people.
Retaliating against racist mobsters is something that pretty much every street gang would support and they do kill people.


I do not think it is the hardcore street gangs that are beheading Christopher Columbus statues, that is ANTIFA type actions. Columbus’s crimes were against natives not blacks. And it would not be the 90 year old consigliere who would carry out the hit but the foot soldiers. What I see as the biggest problem for the Mafia should they decide to put contracts out on people who behead Columbus statues is finding out who did it. The Mafia‘s rigid code would have a tough time against Antifa’s asymmetrical tactics.



I wouldn't rule out that one can both be a goon and have commitments to social causes. One's a career, the other is ideals. Further, every single BLM affiliated person I've interacted with has expressed sympathy for indigenous concerns, since the experience of being a 'colonized people' is one that both communities share.

ANTIFA aren't a street gang nor any other type of organization that uses deadly force. Mobsters generally don't go after civilians because they know that gets them a lot more negative attention. Further, the mob is largely apolitical. Maybe individual mobsters might want revenge but unless the boss is cool with it nothing will happen.

Further, if the mob started engaging in racially motivated attacks against other groups you can guarantee those groups would run them out of town. Generally speaking organized crime doesn't appreciate things becoming messy because that brings unwelcome attention. The group that draws that attention would have most of the rest against them because they'd have a common interest in making that attention go away.

Finally, the mob is known for trying to be discreet, they'd send a guy or two. Some other groups have no interest in discretion and would gladly send a few dozen kids just to demonstrate that they can conduct operations on that scale.


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Pepe
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12 Jun 2020, 3:11 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
sly279 wrote:
Going be tough tearing down this one
Image

And how will they do this one
Image

Both are honoring racist. One was even slave owner.

This one also. But don’t get to cocky, they way things are going government leaders might order them destroyed.


When did the Taliban emigrate to America? :scratch:



ASPartOfMe
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12 Jun 2020, 3:44 am

funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Tearing down Cristopher Columbus statues. The Goombah’s are not going to like it. “Hands up, don’t shoot” won’t work against the Mafia.

Before everybody gets all offended
1. The Mafia are vicious criminals that are overly glorified in the movies and the media.
2. 95 plus percent of Italian-American’s are not Mafia
3. When they are not at “work” they are very much into traditional families and their Italian heritage.

The Mafia is not what it once was and they very well may be well behind Antifa tech wise but if they can I can envision the Mafia putting hits on people who tear down Columbus statues.


Old goombah's vs street soldiers, my money's on the ones who aren't in depends. A dozen members of a family can't match a few vans filled with kids with AKs and SKs.

ANTIFA are irrelevant in this, ANTIFA doesn't kill people.
Retaliating against racist mobsters is something that pretty much every street gang would support and they do kill people.


I do not think it is the hardcore street gangs that are beheading Christopher Columbus statues, that is ANTIFA type actions. Columbus’s crimes were against natives not blacks. And it would not be the 90 year old consigliere who would carry out the hit but the foot soldiers. What I see as the biggest problem for the Mafia should they decide to put contracts out on people who behead Columbus statues is finding out who did it. The Mafia‘s rigid code would have a tough time against Antifa’s asymmetrical tactics.



I wouldn't rule out that one can both be a goon and have commitments to social causes. One's a career, the other is ideals. Further, every single BLM affiliated person I've interacted with has expressed sympathy for indigenous concerns, since the experience of being a 'colonized people' is one that both communities share.

ANTIFA aren't a street gang nor any other type of organization that uses deadly force. Mobsters generally don't go after civilians because they know that gets them a lot more negative attention. Further, the mob is largely apolitical. Maybe individual mobsters might want revenge but unless the boss is cool with it nothing will happen.

Further, if the mob started engaging in racially motivated attacks against other groups you can guarantee those groups would run them out of town. Generally speaking organized crime doesn't appreciate things becoming messy because that brings unwelcome attention. The group that draws that attention would have most of the rest against them because they'd have a common interest in making that attention go away.

Finally, the mob is known for trying to be discreet, they'd send a guy or two. Some other groups have no interest in discretion and would gladly send a few dozen kids just to demonstrate that they can conduct operations on that scale.

It would not be a political decision, it would be considered defending honor.


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12 Jun 2020, 5:45 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
sly279 wrote:
Going be tough tearing down this one
Image

And how will they do this one
Image

Both are honoring racist. One was even slave owner.

This one also. But don’t get to cocky, they way things are going government leaders might order them destroyed.


That Wikipedia is lies
The monument is the tallest unreinforced concrete structure in the world. No steel was used to reinforce the concrete walls below its pyramidal top. As one pour was completed, large chunks of limestone were left projecting up to connect it to the next pour above. It is also the tallest concrete obelisk in the world.

But the Washington monument is also unreinforced at 555’ so yeah.
Never knew a Davis monument existed, so I reslly don’t care it does. Seems to draw in money for the state. I wouldn’t want to go see it, maybe if the Washington monument didn’t exist. It seems to be rare type of building as such I’d be against it being torn down.


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naturalplastic
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12 Jun 2020, 6:52 am

Most of the monuments around DC are inspired by Greco-Roman architecture.

The Washington Monument is an Egyptian obelisk. So it is indeed unique.



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12 Jun 2020, 7:41 am

Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Pepe wrote:
I hope they don't forget this one, in England. :mrgreen:

Quote:
LONDON —

BRITAIN : New Statue to Bomber Chief Raises German Ire

Old German and British war wounds have been reopened by a new controversy over a statue being erected in London to the officer whose bomber force rained explosives on Germany.

The statue commemorates Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Arthur Harris, Britain’s top bomber commander during World War II, who masterminded the RAF’s night bombing campaign over Germany.

Known as “Bomber Harris” for his single-minded execution of strategic bombing--characterized by mass raids with widespread devastation of major cities such as Cologne, Hamburg, Berlin, Wuerzburg and Dresden--Harris was called “The Butcher” by the Germans.

An estimated half a million Germans were killed in night bombing by British planes and in daylight raids by American aircraft. The efficiency of strategic area bombing has long been a subject of dispute. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html


Within months of a holocaust memorial being refused planning permission: Link to article (Jewish Chronicle)

I live in a very weird country don’t I?


I understand the left side of politics, in Britain, is considered broadly anti-semitic.

Could this have influenced the descision?
If not, any personal ideas why it would have been refused?

Westminster City Council is conservative majority, by a wide margin, and has been since it was first instituted in the 1960s.
The relevant planning committee is chaired by a conservative, and has nine conservative members including the chair, and four labour members.
So I suspect it would’ve rather hard for the decision to have been made under the auspices of left-wing antisemitism, even if all the labour members were to be guilty of holding such attitudes.

The details of the decision and the reasoning behind it have not been published (I’ve done a search for them on the councils website).
I think I should note that the campaign against the memorial has several Jewish members, and one of the witnesses against the application was a holocaust education specialist who’s surname leads me to suspect that they are either Jewish or of Jewish descent.
The focus of the campaign against the memorial seems to have been the desire to maintain the park as a happy outdoors space for the local residents and their children: something that the campaign asserts would no longer be possible were the park to contain a holocaust memorial.

I’m also going to note that Ed Balls, co-chair of the Holocaust Memorial Foundation referenced in the article, is a former labour mp: Indeed was the labour finance spokesman during Ed Milliband’s period (2010-15) as party leader.

So... I may get flamed for this...
Yes, there are definitely cluster of antisemitic attitudes and ideas on the British left.
This has come to public attention during the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, himself guilty of several antisemitic speech act whilst he was leader of the party.
There was also an internal investigation which I personally regarded as a self-evident whitewash.
I also noticed that party members accused of antisemitism did not all get the same treatment: the accused who were opposed to Corbyn’s leadership were summarily dismissed, whilst his allies within the party were, at least initially, shielded and excused... even if some were unwillingly sacked later.
There was also the panorama documentary on the bbc which asserted that members of the disciplinary committee of the party who were trying to do their jobs in a competent non-partisan fashion were bullied out of the party by Corbyn’s aides: who also took to putting it about that the whole thing was a propaganda plot without foundation cooked up by the Board of Jewish Deputies to prevent Corbyn from becoming Prime Minister.
Which usage of an antisemitic conspiracy theory to deflect from accusations of antisemitism leaves my thinking that effectively the case is closed: Jeremy Corbyn is an antisemite, as are many of his closest political allies.

However... I have some other observations:
When Ed Milliband was leader of the Labour Party two elements of the right-wing press criticism of him stick out in retrospect: the first was mocking him, a man of Jewish descent, for looking uncomfortable and ill at ease whilst eating a bacon sandwich for a photo-op.
The second was making much of his father having been born in Germany and questioning his loyalty and patriotism on that basis.

I also remember the rumour across the British press (both left and right) from when Tony Blair became Prime Minister that Peter Mandelson, also a man of Jewish descent, was secretly controlling the government and all it’s decisions from behind the scenes... they gave him a nickname: “The Dark Prince”.

Third observation: I’ve moved around a few times within this country, and I’ve noticed that amongst people of all ages and political persuasions jokes which play upon stock antisemitic characterisations of Jews go without challenge or confrontation...

So, I’m currently thinking that English, if not British, culture at large has an antisemitism problem... and the Labour Party has been the institution through which this has been made manifest.

I speculate that the British left’s tendency to focus on the banking industry as the main problem with capitalism, and their obsession with Palestine, make it all too easy for British leftists to succumb to antisemitic thinking without realising that they are doing so (my thinking is that if they were self-aware about it, they’d probably be more circumspect).

The British right seems to have more of a Germanophobia problem at present, what with all the fantasy talk of Brexit being easily sorted by one phone call to the Chancellery in Berlin and openly talking of the EU as the concealed fourth reich that’s keeping Britain down etc etc etc...

Can you tell I’m worried about where my country’s going?



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12 Jun 2020, 8:26 am

I don’t like that there is so much frenzied emotion in all this. There are lots of ideas for compromise in these historical monuments and historical-themed names for things. With all the fighting, how is anyone supposed to work out a solution?

I really like the idea of relocating the statues to confederate cemeteries.

Maybe we should have more traveling art pieces to put in place of some of these things. Then more viewpoints could be represented.



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12 Jun 2020, 12:44 pm

SocOfAutism wrote:
I don’t like that there is so much frenzied emotion in all this. There are lots of ideas for compromise in these historical monuments and historical-themed names for things. With all the fighting, how is anyone supposed to work out a solution?

I really like the idea of relocating the statues to confederate cemeteries.

Maybe we should have more traveling art pieces to put in place of some of these things. Then more viewpoints could be represented.

So far for the most part cemeteries have not been touched. That is apparently going over the line even for Antifa. I can not envision this “line” lasting. I am surprised it lasted this long. If confederate cemeteries start getting vandalized I would expect a much greater violent reaction then we have seen so far. That would radicalize even some people who are embarrassed by the monuments or are for them but have not been willing fight for them because they do see them as a literal lost cause or whatever.


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12 Jun 2020, 1:02 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Cuomo declines to call for removal of Christopher Columbus statue
Quote:
New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) said he did not believe New York City’s statue of Christopher Columbus should be removed, citing the explorer’s cultural significance to Italian Americans.

Asked at his daily press briefing if it was “time for” the statue, which stands on a 27-foot column in Columbus Circle, “to go,” Cuomo responded, “I understand the dialogue that’s been going on for a number of years, [but] the Christopher Columbus statue in some way represents the Italian American legacy in this country and the Italian American contribution in this country,” although he conceded that “some of his acts … nobody would support.”

“The statue has come to represent and signify an appreciation for the Italian American contribution to New York,” he added.

Columbus statues have been targeted in Richmond, Va., where protesters threw a statue into the lake in the city’s Byrd Park, and Boston, where they removed the statue’s head. The cultural celebration of the explorer has long been criticized by Native American advocacy groups, who point out contemporaneous documentation of him ordering the torture, enslavement and killing of natives on the island of Hispaniola. Several cities have replaced the Columbus Day holiday with Indigenous People’s Day as a result.


Simpsons predicted this:


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12 Jun 2020, 6:28 pm

Penny Lane road signs in Liverpool have been vandalised following slavery claims

Quote:
Road signs on Penny Lane in Liverpool have become the latest landmark to be vandalised following claims it was named after a slave trader.

Four signs on the road, made famous by The Beatles song of the same name, were spray-painted over this morning (June 12), with the word “racist” painted on the wall above one sign.

One of the them was autographed by Paul McCartney, who signed his name when he visited the area for an episode of James Corden’s Carpool Karaoke in 2018, but it wasn’t damaged due to a screen protecting his signature, according to The Huffington Post.

Mayor of Liverpool Joe Anderson said there was no evidence to suggest that the road is named after slave trader James Penny, explaining its name instead refers to a toll.

He also said he would support moves to rename other buildings and roads in the city that have links to the slave trade.

The International Slavery Museum in the city said research is being carried out into the origins of the name.

A spokesperson added: “There is some debate about whether Penny Lane was named after James Penny, but the evidence is not conclusive.

“We are actively carrying out research on this particular question and will re-evaluate our display on Liverpool street names and change if required.

“This is an extremely important subject to the museum and the city of Liverpool, and we want to encourage the public to share evidence and research on this topic if they have any.”


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12 Jun 2020, 8:46 pm

Karamazov wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Pepe wrote:
I hope they don't forget this one, in England. :mrgreen:

Quote:
LONDON —

BRITAIN : New Statue to Bomber Chief Raises German Ire

Old German and British war wounds have been reopened by a new controversy over a statue being erected in London to the officer whose bomber force rained explosives on Germany.

The statue commemorates Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Arthur Harris, Britain’s top bomber commander during World War II, who masterminded the RAF’s night bombing campaign over Germany.

Known as “Bomber Harris” for his single-minded execution of strategic bombing--characterized by mass raids with widespread devastation of major cities such as Cologne, Hamburg, Berlin, Wuerzburg and Dresden--Harris was called “The Butcher” by the Germans.

An estimated half a million Germans were killed in night bombing by British planes and in daylight raids by American aircraft. The efficiency of strategic area bombing has long been a subject of dispute. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html


Within months of a holocaust memorial being refused planning permission: Link to article (Jewish Chronicle)

I live in a very weird country don’t I?


I understand the left side of politics, in Britain, is considered broadly anti-semitic.

Could this have influenced the descision?
If not, any personal ideas why it would have been refused?

Westminster City Council is conservative majority, by a wide margin, and has been since it was first instituted in the 1960s.
The relevant planning committee is chaired by a conservative, and has nine conservative members including the chair, and four labour members.
So I suspect it would’ve rather hard for the decision to have been made under the auspices of left-wing antisemitism, even if all the labour members were to be guilty of holding such attitudes.

The details of the decision and the reasoning behind it have not been published (I’ve done a search for them on the councils website).
I think I should note that the campaign against the memorial has several Jewish members, and one of the witnesses against the application was a holocaust education specialist who’s surname leads me to suspect that they are either Jewish or of Jewish descent.
The focus of the campaign against the memorial seems to have been the desire to maintain the park as a happy outdoors space for the local residents and their children: something that the campaign asserts would no longer be possible were the park to contain a holocaust memorial.

I’m also going to note that Ed Balls, co-chair of the Holocaust Memorial Foundation referenced in the article, is a former labour mp: Indeed was the labour finance spokesman during Ed Milliband’s period (2010-15) as party leader.

So... I may get flamed for this...
Yes, there are definitely cluster of antisemitic attitudes and ideas on the British left.
This has come to public attention during the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, himself guilty of several antisemitic speech act whilst he was leader of the party.
There was also an internal investigation which I personally regarded as a self-evident whitewash.
I also noticed that party members accused of antisemitism did not all get the same treatment: the accused who were opposed to Corbyn’s leadership were summarily dismissed, whilst his allies within the party were, at least initially, shielded and excused... even if some were unwillingly sacked later.
There was also the panorama documentary on the bbc which asserted that members of the disciplinary committee of the party who were trying to do their jobs in a competent non-partisan fashion were bullied out of the party by Corbyn’s aides: who also took to putting it about that the whole thing was a propaganda plot without foundation cooked up by the Board of Jewish Deputies to prevent Corbyn from becoming Prime Minister.
Which usage of an antisemitic conspiracy theory to deflect from accusations of antisemitism leaves my thinking that effectively the case is closed: Jeremy Corbyn is an antisemite, as are many of his closest political allies.

However... I have some other observations:
When Ed Milliband was leader of the Labour Party two elements of the right-wing press criticism of him stick out in retrospect: the first was mocking him, a man of Jewish descent, for looking uncomfortable and ill at ease whilst eating a bacon sandwich for a photo-op.
The second was making much of his father having been born in Germany and questioning his loyalty and patriotism on that basis.

I also remember the rumour across the British press (both left and right) from when Tony Blair became Prime Minister that Peter Mandelson, also a man of Jewish descent, was secretly controlling the government and all it’s decisions from behind the scenes... they gave him a nickname: “The Dark Prince”.

Third observation: I’ve moved around a few times within this country, and I’ve noticed that amongst people of all ages and political persuasions jokes which play upon stock antisemitic characterisations of Jews go without challenge or confrontation...

So, I’m currently thinking that English, if not British, culture at large has an antisemitism problem... and the Labour Party has been the institution through which this has been made manifest.

I speculate that the British left’s tendency to focus on the banking industry as the main problem with capitalism, and their obsession with Palestine, make it all too easy for British leftists to succumb to antisemitic thinking without realising that they are doing so (my thinking is that if they were self-aware about it, they’d probably be more circumspect).

The British right seems to have more of a Germanophobia problem at present, what with all the fantasy talk of Brexit being easily sorted by one phone call to the Chancellery in Berlin and openly talking of the EU as the concealed fourth reich that’s keeping Britain down etc etc etc...

Can you tell I’m worried about where my country’s going?


Here,
Have an integrity star. :star:
You have earned it. :wink: