Israel severs ties with UN Human Rights Council

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JeremyNJ1984
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30 Mar 2012, 11:37 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

snapcap wrote:

Israel dictates the lives of Palestinians to a great degree. Palestinians don't dictate the lives of Israelis. Anyone with a brain could have seen what was going to happen after the modern inception of Israel. I'm sure they did, but they frankly didn't care. Israel needs to own up to it's responsibilities and actions.

Exactly, thats like a simplified version of the point I was trying to make....I mean the whole reason I have an issue with Israel is I looked up some information on it, I think for some school paper or something and to me it looked kind of like Palestine could be compared to the ghettos in Nazi Germany......another topic I researched a lot about. I guess I just found it sort of hypocritical and it pissed me off....and I have seen no evidence to suggest that the impression I got was wrong.

for a School paper? actually visit the region...and your way off..if you can't distinigush between the Ghettos and the current Palestinian territories than you shouldn't be writing papers of compare and contrasting. Their are huge glaring differences if you know the history of both events and the contexts they are/were set in. Its an erroneous comparison that has little basis in reality.

Yes the first I heard of the conflict in Israel and Palestine was when I was doing research for a school paper, what is so wrong about that? Also how am I going to afford to go to Israel, and why would I want to? Considering the ongoing conflict and my dislike of violence I don't think Israel or anywhere in the Middle East is where I will be going. I think the way the Palestinians are treated resembles some of the early stages of the holocaust.......not saying they are going to start a full scale extermination, but I certainly don't agree with how they're doing things. And I have really seen nothing to suggest that they are indeed looking to find a solution that is not totally at the expense of all the palestinians. Hell I don't even agree with my own countries involvement in some other regions, and I am supposed to like whats going on between Israel and Palestine?

The Ghettos set up by the Nazis as a temporary relocation plan until the Camps were set up for the sole purpose of eliminating Jewry

The Palestinian Territories have been given their own local govt, their own ability to negotiate for a seperate state of their own, and they choose an All or Nothing approach to what they feel they should get in negotiations and than when it doesnt go their way they decide to erupt in violence, leaving Israel little choice but to respond to protect its territory.

I dont remmeber european jews launching suicide attacks on german civilians

As I said, I never said the two where the same.......I said they seemed similar in some ways, and I was talking the early stages with the ghettos specifically, not to the point of death camps and such. But yeah being blocked from getting medical service, having electricity or other resources cut off ect. reminds me what I read about the ghettos in Nazi Germany.

Hmm never thought someone would see it as a negative thing that I like to read non-fiction books....or liked to, not so much nowdays.

I am not going to get on you, because you genuinely don't know the History....but like i said yesterday, I suggest doing a bit more research than just a school paper before spouting off on this topic. The Historical analogies don't work in any context whatsoever, and your leaving out key information as to WHY medicine, electricity, resources are not getting to the Palestinians...largely the result of the actions of the Palestinians from the 2 Infitadas in 88 and 2000. Its not that you read non-fiction...I was a History major who studied the region and traveled in it, but your understanding of what your reading is a bit off.

JeremyNJ1984
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30 Mar 2012, 11:41 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:

Israel doesn't get a free pass on anything. In fact its probably one of the most scrutinized countries in the world thanks to the efforts by the General Assembly Arab bloc to make it so. Israel actually disportionate coverage and attention based on size and importance to the overall fabric of global stability. The Central African civil war barely receives the attention and condemnations given to Israel, or ethnic violence in South Asia. The reason the U.S gives money to Israel is two fold: 1) as a diplomative initative to bring Israel to the negotiation table as a matter of " carrots" approach to foreign policy. 2 ) The money is used for joint projects in science, engineering, with a military approach to the appropiations. Removing foreign aid will do nothing to make the region more stable or peaceful. Not to mention we ( The U.S) have provided our other regional allies such as Turkey and Saudi Arabia with money, weapons, etc to bolster our leverage in the Near East.

Yeah so the money that goes to Israel just feeds the military industrial complex, except the branch in Israel.......doesn't the U.S spend enough on destruction as is. Besides more violence and oppression towards the Palestinians is not going to make the region more stable and peaceful either. Either both sides have to grow up and quit throwing explosives at each other, and come to a two state solution or decide they aren't so different after all and just leave it as one nation but without the division and violence between palestinians and Israelies.... I mean they should do that two state solution or not. But trying to figure out who started the conflict and who's justified in killing who what about a solution.

The money and weapons are not used for the purpose of killing Palestinians. Not sure if you ever talked to an IDF soldier before, but they aren't directed toward killing Palestininas with each new weapons they make or get. Also, the One Nation approach is never going to happen...if you knew the history you would know this would never be accepted from either side for legitimate reasons....Jews would become a minority overnight in this new state and they would be at the mercy of the Arabs. Arabs would never desire a shared govt with Jews. This concept was originally devised in the 1920s..in fact you could see part of the reason for the Partition plan in 1948 by the way this system was just flat out not working within the framework of the British Mandate govt than ran Palestine. A One State Solution is a Final Solution for Jews...Every diplomat and person realizes that it would have to be 2 states.

Sweetleaf
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30 Mar 2012, 11:45 am

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

snapcap wrote:

I think you should probably quit trying to insult my intelligence over a political debate.....History is one of my favorite subjects so knock it off. I was only saying the first research I did was when I was writing a school paper, why is that something to talk down on me about. I mean I can live with having a different opinion than you.........but lets keep it at that shall we. Also its not the actions of all the palestinians, its the actions of a few 'extremists' or terrorists if you prefer that term.

Could you tell me what i am so far off on? I mean you have provided no information to counter any of the points I've made...you've just insulted the way I researched the topic. If you have something that proves Israel has not done anything at all wrong when it comes to their policy towards Palestine go ahead and post a link or something and I'll be glad to look at it. But I am of the opinion using violence and oppression on the palestinians is not working and is the wrong way to go about it. I can't change my opinion on that just so I agree with other people.

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visagrunt
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30 Mar 2012, 11:47 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

Okay, let's look at some evidence, then.

How many Jews had voting rights under the Nazis? Arab Israeli citizens have full voting rights and Arab permanent residents (those in the occupied territories who chose not to take Israel citizenship) have municipal voting rights.

How many Jews sat in the Reichstag? There are currently 14 (out of 120) Arab members in the Knesset.

How many Jews were members of Nazi courts? The Supreme Court of Israel includes an Arab judge.

How many Jews were members of the government under the Third Reich? Although the current government (unsurprisingly) has no Arab ministers, I can recall at least 5 Arabs that have held Ministerial and Deputy Ministerial portfolios, as well as a similar number of Deputy Speakers of the Knesset and one Acting President.

How many Jews occupied senior ranks within the public service? Israel has had Arab Ambassadors and Heads of Consular missions, Arab Generals in the IDF, Arab Commanders in the Police Force.

Now that is not to suggest that Arabs are fully represented in public life in Israel--they form 20% of the population, and they are underrepresented across the board. But they are represented--which is more than can be said for Jews in the Third Reich, or non-muslims in any of the Arab states other than Lebanon and Egypt.

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Tequila
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30 Mar 2012, 11:48 am

visagrunt wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Yup.

Sweetleaf
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30 Mar 2012, 11:49 am

visagrunt wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

The only thing I said was the current treatment of the Palestinians, reminds me of what I read about the ghettos in Nazi Germany......I did not say Israel is a copy of nazi germany, I said what is going on with the Palestinians resembles the ghettos that existed there. That is all, I am not going to bother answering all that as none of that is even relevant to what I was trying to say.

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JeremyNJ1984
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30 Mar 2012, 11:50 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

snapcap wrote:

I am not trying to insult your intelligence. You have made some gross analogies and completely ridicoulous claims about Israeli actions, about Israel itself, that are just patently untrue. So If i have to step on a few peoples toes to get the right and correct information out there, than so be it. So I haven't countered any of your claims? than what about my post discussing the dissimilarities between nazi germany and present day Israel? that doesn't count? I don't need to link or post something here. I am discussing a topic and I can't keep spoon feeding you information to stay in the discussion. Thats why i recommend ( which I gave you some authors) reading about the conflict, to educate yourself better on it.

Sweetleaf
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30 Mar 2012, 11:56 am

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:

Ok what have I said that is patently untrue? Is it false that they are using violence and forms of opression on the palestinians in the name of self defense and that, so far that policy is not working too well. Is it false that they tend to disregard civilian lives? Also I am not saying the palestinians are right either........but obviously the constant conflict there is not working out so well.

Also I was not comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, I was comparing some areas of palestine to the ghettos that existed in nazi germany, because well that's what it resembled to me. Also I am not going to be educated out of believing constant fighting is not improving things there...its not. Both sides are going to have to come to terms with that want to put in the effort it takes to improve things eventually otherwise I'll be suprised if any countries in that region will be standing at all 100 years from now or whatever.

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Billybones
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30 Mar 2012, 12:40 pm

visagrunt wrote:

You are conveniently leaving the Occupied Territories out of this analysis. The majority of Arabs under Israeli rule live here, without the basic rights of citizenship & frequently subjected to brutality, arbitrary arrest, material deprivation, confiscation of land, demolition of homes, & collective punishment. This IS a de facto Apartheid system, in place for nearly 45 years now, & the Palestinians have a legitimate right to resist. I know I would.

ruveyn
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30 Mar 2012, 12:54 pm

Billybones wrote:

The Palestinians whose homes are destroyed are those involved in attacking the state. It is the avowed purpose of the Palestinians to -eliminate- the state of Israel. This folks are enemies of the State and have no rights than the Israeli government is bound to recognize.

ruveyn

Billybones
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30 Mar 2012, 12:58 pm

ruveyn wrote:

This folks are enemies of the State and have no rights than the Israeli government is bound to recognize.

ruveyn

Spoken like a true "libertarian", eh?

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30 Mar 2012, 1:16 pm

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:

The money and weapons are not used for the purpose of killing Palestinians. Not sure if you ever talked to an IDF soldier before, but they aren't directed toward killing Palestininas with each new weapons they make or get.

I know that, but considering it is the military that Israel uses to keep the palestinians 'in line' in an indirect way it does. I just don't see why the U.S should be involved with this unless they actually have some idea for a solution. Just funding Israels military and accusing anyone who disagrees with Israels policies of being an anti-semite is not a good way to go about it. I mean I really don't care what religion people follow or what ethnic background they have but that does not make me like Israels government anymore than any other government.

Also, the One Nation approach is never going to happen...if you knew the history you would know this would never be accepted from either side for legitimate reasons....Jews would become a minority overnight in this new state and they would be at the mercy of the Arabs. Arabs would never desire a shared govt with Jews. This concept was originally devised in the 1920s..in fact you could see part of the reason for the Partition plan in 1948 by the way this system was just flat out not working within the framework of the British Mandate govt than ran Palestine. A One State Solution is a Final Solution for Jews...Every diplomat and person realizes that it would have to be 2 states.

Yeah that is why I think both sides should get over their thousand year old grudge already, because endless fighting between the two isn't going to work....and the children in palestine and Israel should not grow up learning to hate each other, that's BS and a waste of peoples lives in my opinion. I mean that would be like if i decided to start a 'take back the native land from the white man' revolution since I'm part native american that would just stir old grudges.

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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 30 Mar 2012, 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JeremyNJ1984
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30 Mar 2012, 1:18 pm

Billybones wrote:

visagrunt wrote:

You are conveniently leaving out the Suicide bombings, the constant propaganda, infusion of weaponry from hostile regimes, and the fact the Palestinian have had numerous chances to have their state. But lets ignore those brutal facts.....They don't want citizenship in Israel...they elected their own representatives in gaza and the west bank, remember? can't have 2 govts.

Sweetleaf
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30 Mar 2012, 1:20 pm

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:

Billybones wrote:

visagrunt wrote:

Typically a specific group of people in a certain country, don't opt for breaking away and creating their own government for no reason you know.

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JeremyNJ1984
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30 Mar 2012, 1:22 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:

The money and weapons are not used for the purpose of killing Palestinians. Not sure if you ever talked to an IDF soldier before, but they aren't directed toward killing Palestininas with each new weapons they make or get.

I know that, but considering it is the military that Israel uses to keep the palestinians 'in line' in an indirect way it does. I just don't see why the U.S should be involved with this unless they actually have some idea for a solution. Just funding Israels military and accusing anyone who disagrees with Israels policies of being an anti-semite is not a good way to go about it. I mean I really don't care what religion people follow or what ethnic background they have but that does not make me like Israels government anymore than any other government.

Also, the One Nation approach is never going to happen...if you knew the history you would know this would never be accepted from either side for legitimate reasons....Jews would become a minority overnight in this new state and they would be at the mercy of the Arabs. Arabs would never desire a shared govt with Jews. This concept was originally devised in the 1920s..in fact you could see part of the reason for the Partition plan in 1948 by the way this system was just flat out not working within the framework of the British Mandate govt than ran Palestine. A One State Solution is a Final Solution for Jews...Every diplomat and person realizes that it would have to be 2 states.

..its not a 1,000 year grudge...its actually about 75-80 years of actual conflict. But the Israeli military is not there to keep Palestinians in line...its there to protect Israelies from very real violence internally ( suicide bombers) and external ( hezbolla, hamas, Iran).

Billybones
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30 Mar 2012, 1:43 pm

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:

Do you mean to insinuate that Israel holds the moral high ground because it delivers its explosives with guided missiles rather than suicide vest? The bottom line is that for every Israeli life lost in the sequence of this long conflict, about 1,000 Arab lives are lost - referring to wars in Gaza in 2009 & Lebanon in 2006 especially.

When it comes to the infusion of weaponry, the Arabs got nothing like what the U.S. delivers to Israel.

As for propaganda, I can't think of a single other instance in which the media coverage is so one-sided. We're all trained to view this conflict through the prism of "terrorism" & the presumption of Israeli righteousness.

As for the Palestinian desire for statehood & the rights of citizenship, it has to be a fully sovereign & independent state with full control of its borders, not a bantustan or a demilitarized, dependent rump state. It must contain ALL the territory of occupied Palestine, with a just accommodation for the displaced Palestinians & either a right of return or some form of compensation in lieu. Of course we all know that Israel has no intention of agreeing to this. It fully intends to keep & settle the lands it conquered, & as for the Palestinian Arabs, either kill, deport, or make life so miserable for them that will leave on their own accord.

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