Good man with a gun

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feral botanist
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25 Jan 2017, 8:31 am

Dox47 wrote:

feral botanist wrote:

My fear is that something will happen that may or may not require the use of deadly force, but some hero will pull a gun and I or some other bystander will get shot because the hero does not have enough training to know what he/she is doing.

Missing the target or shooting through a wall.

Which happens how often? Seriously, look it up, you have a much better chance of being unintentionally shot by the police than you do by a licensed carrier, especially seeing how the police are personally insulated from the results of a bad shoot, while a civilian carrier has to worry about the full force of the law. You really should look this stuff up before posting, it would save you some embarrassment.

Overall sure, but I bet the rate of people shot by heros vs. police is higher. This is the issue of absolute numbers vs. a rate.

There is training done for police that teaches them to handle this type of trainng.

Let me be very clear. I am not against gun ownership. I just do not think most people are competent to handle a gun during an emergency situation.

feral botanist
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25 Jan 2017, 8:36 am

and these are the professionals

http://www.policemag.com/list/tag/train ... dents.aspx

feral botanist
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25 Jan 2017, 8:59 am

Dox47 wrote:

feral botanist wrote:

I missed it in your post, where you are trying to save me from embarassment.

Your concern is touching.

Do not worry, I will do some more research and we will discuss the embarassing error in your argument. I am concerned for you, but I have a job I need to go to right now.

ZenDen
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25 Jan 2017, 2:00 pm

feral botanist wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

feral botanist wrote:

You said: "I fear...." and I believe this tells us all we need to know about your uninformed opinion. It's obvious the person you don't trust to behave properly is yourself, and thus, by extension, others.

There are approximately 12.8 million U.S. citizens licensed to carry concealed weapons. Just exactly how many instances do you remember where a legally licensed person has accidentally shot an innocent person...by accident or intentionally?????? Any..without having to do a search...(?)...I didn't think so.

I hope your research helps you.

Adamantium
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25 Jan 2017, 2:43 pm

feral botanist wrote:

and these are the professionals

http://www.policemag.com/list/tag/train ... dents.aspx

Can you explain your thought about this?

"and these are the professionals" seems to suggest something, but you've left it unsaid.

I follow that link and see a page listing 20 stories of police training accidents spanning the period 2013-present

Among those stories are a story about safety in rappelling training, a car accident, two fatal head injuries and a serious fall.

The remaining 15 stories are about accidents involving firearms. The 15 stories cover 8 incidents in which 9 people were shot, 5 fatally.

That's nationwide coverage over a 4 year period. Four officers and one civilian killed by guns in training.

Does that seem like a frighteningly high number to you? Do you know how many police officers there are in the United States? NYPD alone has 34,000 uniformed officers, armed with guns.

Does something about this data seem scary to you? If so, you might want to refresh your knowledge of probability and statistics. If these police training accidents seem like a strong case against anyone using guns for any purpose, you might want to focus your attention on the far, far deadlier automobile.

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Adamantium
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25 Jan 2017, 2:47 pm

cyberdad wrote:

And no I didn't say "all are racist" just the 65% who agreed with the acquittal...

But you know that is highly unlikely to be true, so why say it?
Why not recognize that many Republicans who agreed with the acquittal thought the state failed to prove their case?

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cyberdad
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25 Jan 2017, 5:13 pm

Adamantium wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

And no I didn't say "all are racist" just the 65% who agreed with the acquittal...

But you know that is highly unlikely to be true, so why say it?
Why not recognize that many Republicans who agreed with the acquittal thought the state failed to prove their case?

Why not say you are being overly generous in positively interpreting the motivating factors behind these voters. At best it's ignorance.

Adamantium
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25 Jan 2017, 5:21 pm

cyberdad wrote:

Adamantium wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

And no I didn't say "all are racist" just the 65% who agreed with the acquittal...

But you know that is highly unlikely to be true, so why say it?
Why not recognize that many Republicans who agreed with the acquittal thought the state failed to prove their case?

Why not say you are being overly generous in positively interpreting the motivating factors behind these voters. At best it's ignorance.

That would be true if I didn't know any Republicans who agreed with the verdict and do not have the motivations you ascribe to them. It's a small sample, to be sure, but it's a genuine data point. I'm not going to pretend I can extrapolate from the few people I know who hold those views, but I'm not going to deny their existence either.

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cyberdad
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25 Jan 2017, 7:46 pm

Adamantium wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

Adamantium wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

And no I didn't say "all are racist" just the 65% who agreed with the acquittal...

But you know that is highly unlikely to be true, so why say it?
Why not recognize that many Republicans who agreed with the acquittal thought the state failed to prove their case?

Why not say you are being overly generous in positively interpreting the motivating factors behind these voters. At best it's ignorance.

I don't pretend to know the underlying motivation of the sample here but we can make an educated guess. According to the Harvard University Implicit Association test 70% of White Americans have a subconscious bias for their own race. I imagine if you filter out liberals from their sample then the rate of bias is going to be closer to 90%. When you have virtually the entire GOP support base carrying inherent psychological bias against minorities then it's not particularly "earth shattering" that they can overlook racially inflammatory comments made by Donald trump during the election.

Adamantium
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26 Jan 2017, 10:33 am

cyberdad wrote:

According to the Harvard University Implicit Association test 70% of White Americans have a subconscious bias for their own race. I imagine if you filter out liberals from their sample then the rate of bias is going to be closer to 90%.

I'm certain you're wrong about that. Liberals are not remotely free from implicit bias.

Back on topic, none of this makes a rational argument for why law abiding people shouldn't have and use guns for self defense.

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cyberdad
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27 Jan 2017, 5:02 am

Adamantium wrote:

Back on topic, none of this makes a rational argument for why law abiding people shouldn't have and use guns for self defense.

The first problem is deciding who a law abiding citizen is?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... .html?_r=0

Raptor
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27 Jan 2017, 9:26 am

^ I guess the nagging thousand dollar question here is why does someone living on the far side of the globe care about America's gun culture and laws...

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Adamantium
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27 Jan 2017, 10:48 am

cyberdad wrote:

Adamantium wrote:

Back on topic, none of this makes a rational argument for why law abiding people shouldn't have and use guns for self defense.

The first problem is deciding who a law abiding citizen is?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... .html?_r=0

That's not really what the link discusses.

Not wanting to tip off suspected terrorists to an ongoing investigation, for example, is not a concern about identifying the lawless. But if that's the objection, I guess you are recognizing that's it's OK in principle for a people to defend themselves with guns in certain circumstances. Gad to see you have come around to a rationalist perspective! :mrgreen:

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cyberdad
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27 Jan 2017, 11:12 pm

Adamantium wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

Adamantium wrote:

Back on topic, none of this makes a rational argument for why law abiding people shouldn't have and use guns for self defense.

The first problem is deciding who a law abiding citizen is?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... .html?_r=0

I've been warned off American gun topics a couple of years ago, should stick to that advice

cyberdad
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27 Jan 2017, 11:13 pm

Raptor wrote:

^ I guess the nagging thousand dollar question here is why does someone living on the far side of the globe care about America's gun culture and laws...

Because Australia is highly Americanised and we tend to adopt a lot of your cultural practices (although we are often a decade or two behind)

Raptor
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28 Jan 2017, 11:41 am

cyberdad wrote:

Raptor wrote:

^ I guess the nagging thousand dollar question here is why does someone living on the far side of the globe care about America's gun culture and laws...

Because Australia is highly Americanised and we tend to adopt a lot of your cultural practices (although we are often a decade or two behind)

Very weak. :roll:

The entire civilized world is Americanized to one extent or another.

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