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vermontsavant
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14 Aug 2019, 2:06 pm

Fnord wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There was talk that the guards were pulling double and triple shifts or whatever.
"Was talk" == Rumor.

But it won't surprise me if it turns out to be true.
yes.they were also sleeping on the job


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vermontsavant
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14 Aug 2019, 2:08 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
There was talk that the guards were pulling double and triple shifts or whatever.
yes.and they were also sleeping on the job


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14 Aug 2019, 2:16 pm

guards went 3 hours without checking on him,they were supposed to check on him every 30 minutes.

the warden has been reassigned

unions had warned of dire staffing shortages


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Fnord
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14 Aug 2019, 2:23 pm

Complacency and negligence seem much more believable than invisible phase-shifting ninja assassins...



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14 Aug 2019, 3:31 pm

It's amazing someone can actually kill themselves this way.

Like, where does the bedsheet hang from?

How does the person resist the body fighting to breath (seems like bedsheet knot would come loose)?


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Fnord
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14 Aug 2019, 3:47 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
... where does the bedsheet hang from?
Light fixtures or fire sprinkler pipes.
LoveNotHate wrote:
How does the person resist the body fighting to breath (seems like bedsheet knot would come loose)?
They don't. The whole idea of "Death by Hanging" is to drop the person from a high enough place that the force of the sudden stop snaps their neck and severs their spinal cord leading to instant (or near-instant) death.



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14 Aug 2019, 4:01 pm

Suicide is the leading cause of death in American jails. You can google it. It is something like 7x the rate among the general population. Suicide in higher in jails than in prisons.

One possible positive thing to come out of Epstein's death is an examination of the high rate of suicide in jails and what can be done to reduce it.


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14 Aug 2019, 4:41 pm

blazingstar wrote:
... One possible positive thing to come out of Epstein's death is an examination of the high rate of suicide in jails and what can be done to reduce it.
[persona=captain_obvious]

The "First-Cause" factor in all prison suicides is criminal activity.

Crime --> Arrest --> Trial --> Conviction --> Prison --> Suicide

Eliminate criminal activity and watch the prison suicide rate decrease.


[/persona]



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14 Aug 2019, 5:18 pm

I understand your point of view, Fnord. You might be interested in examining more closely the Norwegian or Swedish systems. Just for laughs.

Your trajectory assumes people are tried, convicted, and sentenced before they try suicide.

People in jail are people who have been arrested, but not necessarily even charged or tried yet. It is people in jail who have the astonishingly high rate of suicide.

Through just my limited IRL connection with the prison and jail population, many people don't belong there, are innocent, are (for example) with low IQ, but are at risk for physical and sexual violence as much as those guilty of far more serious crimes.


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14 Aug 2019, 5:37 pm

Fnord wrote:
Which seems more likely:

1. Trump, Dershowitz, the Clintons, princes, celebrities, Hollywood moguls and global financiers conspiring together to hire invisible stealth ninja assassins to do the actual dirty work?
You gotta be kidding!

2. Overworked guards in the understaffed prison working in a brutal system that kills countless people through malice, negligence, and incompetence every year? This seems likely.

3. A cowardly old man seeing no other way out of a situation he put himself into after decades of forcing minors into sexual slavery, and then hanging himself the day after a dumpload of damning evidence and testimony against him was unsealed? This seems more likely.


Sorry. Wrong. It doesn't parse that way. Because those options are not mutually exclusive.

Claiming ninjas broke in and killed him is crazy. He almost certainly died by his own hands. But that's exactly the problem. Everyone knew he was likely to do that.

The guards could have been paid off to look the other way, or someone higher up might have been paid off to accidently on purpose schedule the guards so that there were gaps in observing a guy everyone knew was in danger of suicide. Or accidently on purpose allow him to have bedsheets and his own pants belt (things normally denied to prisoners on suicide watch).

When keeping the guy alive takes action, you don't have to take action to kill him. You just need a lapse in action.
So it could be three, or it could be a combination of one and three.

Incompetence. Or deliberate incompetence. Either seems likely to me.

My actual opinion:I lean toward it being pure three. The guy just did himself in. Hillary, Donald, and Prince Andrew had nothing to do with it. And it just happens look a little too convenient for certain powerful guys. But we don't really know at this point.



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14 Aug 2019, 5:55 pm

It seems to me we been lied to so many times by the media, our elected officials, and the intelligence community, we'd have to be braid-dead not to question a story that doesn't add up. And this s**t doesn't add up! We're expected to believe that an inmate in a federal facility, who already tried to kill himself once, would be taken off of suicide watch? Uhhh kay! That makes total sense. That security camera was broken! -- Uhhh kay! The guards were overworked and tired! Uhhh kay!

If none of the people charged with keeping Epstein safe until he could stand trial aren't fired, then we'll know it wasn't merely negligence.


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14 Aug 2019, 7:01 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
It seems to me we been lied to so many times by the media, our elected officials, and the intelligence community, we'd have to be braid-dead not to question a story that doesn't add up. And this s**t doesn't add up! We're expected to believe that an inmate in a federal facility, who already tried to kill himself once, would be taken off of suicide watch? Uhhh kay! That makes total sense. That security camera was broken! -- Uhhh kay! The guards were overworked and tired! Uhhh kay!

If none of the people charged with keeping Epstein safe until he could stand trial aren't fired, then we'll know it wasn't merely negligence.


It pretty much takes an act of God to fire a federal worker.....at this point it's just leave and reassignment from what I've seen.



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14 Aug 2019, 7:24 pm

blazingstar wrote:
... Your trajectory assumes people are tried, convicted, and sentenced before they try suicide. People in jail are people who have been arrested, but not necessarily even charged or tried yet. It is people in jail who have the astonishingly high rate of suicide...
Yes, of course. I was focused on Epstein's case. There are other "at risk" arrestees who might be better off at home with a personal tracking device than in a jail cell -- no doubt about that.



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14 Aug 2019, 7:28 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
... My actual opinion:I lean toward it being pure three. The guy just did himself in. Hillary, Donald, and Prince Andrew had nothing to do with it. And it just happens look a little too convenient for certain powerful guys. But we don't really know at this point.
My opinion too. I added the "ninja" option to point out the absurdity of a global conspiracy to off just one man.



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14 Aug 2019, 8:02 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
It's amazing someone can actually kill themselves this way.

Like, where does the bedsheet hang from?

How does the person resist the body fighting to breath (seems like bedsheet knot would come loose)?

My nephew put the knot in the top of the door and closed it part way.The body weight pulls the knot tight.It happens more than you think.This is getting publicity because of someone famous.Many have offed themselves this way.


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14 Aug 2019, 9:48 pm

Misslizard wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
It's amazing someone can actually kill themselves this way.

Like, where does the bedsheet hang from?

How does the person resist the body fighting to breath (seems like bedsheet knot would come loose)?

My nephew put the knot in the top of the door and closed it part way.The body weight pulls the knot tight.It happens more than you think.This is getting publicity because of someone famous.Many have offed themselves this way.


I had a family member do that too. He had been arrested and charged, no bail.