[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.

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naturalplastic
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09 Oct 2023, 3:15 am

cyberdad wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:

So you ARE in favor of Russia conquering Ukraine.

In favor of it because ...why? Because taking Ukraine's side is more 'suicidal' than taking Russia's side?

And if thats your logic...why do you support Israel? Iran has oil. Israel does not. So why not take Iran's side against Israel? Isnt supporting Israel also "suicidal" by your logic?


There is evidence Ukraine may have instagated Putin's hand. It does not exonerate Putin but I am a practical man with Russia. Historic borders aside Russia considers Ukraine part of their people like China considers Tibet and Xinjiang part of theirs (Russians and Ukrainians are actually closer). So by your logic we should be waging war on China.

We are not waging war on Russia now. So how would that be "my logic"? And we do support Taiwan. And you havent explained why you support Israel instead of Iran ...if economic survival and practicality are the only concerns.


I'll make it simple
China kills innocent Tibetans and Uiyghers = we continue trading with them
Russia wages war on Ukraine - we impose sanctions

How is that equitable exactly?


Totally different situations.

Because Ukraine is already fighting back and will continue to fight if we support them. And if they loose Russia will continue and conquer Moldavia, Belarus, the Baltic States of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia, (all former Soviet Republics) and probably wont stop there and go on to attack former Warsaw pact nations like Poland. And we will really will have WWIII.

AND if we loose Ukraine then that would be worse economic suicide than we have now because Russia will then control the wheat growing area of much of the world in Ukraine.

China seized Tibet and Xinjiang decades ago and did not continue agressing beyond. And if they DID use those areas to agress it would threaten our enemies like Russia more than it would threaten us. And why do you keep sliting your own throat by talking about China anyway? I just got through telling you that appeasing Russia in Ukraine keeps China from seizing Taiwan.

And you cant use Ukraine as a scapegoat for everything. The Hamas attack has more to do with the changing situation in the mideast than with eastern Europe. Iran "picked this moment" because Israel's traditional enemies (the sunni arab states like saudi arabia and Egypt are now cozying up to Israel because they are now...more afraid of Iran than than they are of Israel. So Iran has to use proxies to attack Israel by itsself now.



The_Face_of_Boo
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09 Oct 2023, 3:17 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
Patrick22348 wrote:
Jakki wrote:
When you destroy .. an entire peoples country, or even just one persons home under victimizing circumstances
including using violence and murder .. It could be construed ..that you might be creating a situation that is primed to radicalize people . And then even though you are the country using terror tactics to abolish a country. AND. you have control of the bulk of the" available media" in the world ,in one way or another. You can easily make the people on the other side ,out to be terrorists . Just for defending their home and people . And if it becomes a War , which it has
And their country has few assets to defend itself . Then those people might retaliate using unconventional methods.?
These Palestinians culture and existence is based in reality, over thousands of years old , But the biblical concepts of Israel and Christianity are not even in the same Century as Palestinians . Israel 1967, Palestine 1000 years or more before Christ . But I am no scholar on these topics.. But might feel disrespected if someone stole my home.
And the US has used these exact methods to get the political objectives attained . ie. 9/11 and Sadam Hussein and entire country of Iraq . But needed 9/11 as an excuse to the US population . :skull:
The Jordanians have ended up on the short end of the stick aswell. Having to recieve thousands of Palistinians
as refugees .. It is a wonder that Jordan and Israel have not ended up in a War, Aswell.
Not sure whom to credit this Quote to," One mans freedom fighter is another mans Terrorist"
and it appears to be a valid observation even today. Am regretable to write .


In my opinion, what it really boils down to is that Isrealis are more "white" than Palestinians. Selling angry Muslims is a hard sell in many circumstances, even if someone's house is being blown out of existence.



Israel is the size of New Jersey.
For the longest time, surrounding countries wouldn't even acknowledge their right to exist. Like it or not, there is a book that has outlasted most every single book in the world, that book is the Bible. That book mentions the Jews, and their land that was given to them by God and is was initially much larger!



You can't force your faith on others.


To force one's faith on someone else is about as UnAmerican as you're going to get. And it should be pointed out that not everyone who professes Christianity believes Israel in the Biblical sense is the present Jewish state, but that true believers united by faith in Christ are - that is, the term Israel, according to supersessionist doctrine, is a matter of faith not ethnicity. This should not be confused with idiot Christian Identity, which is a racist, Anti-Semitic pseudo-doctrine. As for where the true Israel (the invisible church) resides, it's where ever two or three meet in Christ rather than any specific geographic area like the Levant.


Surely the local Christians here (34% of population) don't believe in Bible the way Persephone29's denomination does, because that means they simply have to hand their land to Israel....because "God commanded so".



magz
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09 Oct 2023, 3:24 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Iran "picked this moment" because Israel's traditional enemies (the sunni arab states like saudi arabia and Egypt) are now cozying up to Israel because they are now...more afraid of Iran than than they are of Israel. So Iran has to use proxies to attack Israel by itsself now.
That's what I understood of it, too. That this action and the retaliation after it makes it way more difficult for Saudi Arabia to continue becoming more friendly with Israel - so the one that gains and likely funds and supports it all is Iran.


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Kraichgauer
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09 Oct 2023, 4:10 am

The_Face_Of_Boo-

I myself do not, as I happen to have been raised with supersessionism. It's mostly fundamentalists and evangelicals who believe the Old Testament Hebrew kingdom must be reestablished in order to hasten Christ's thousand year rule on earth. It has a lot to do with the millennialist (again, fundamentalists and evangelicals) interpretation of the book of Revelations, in which that book is seen as prophecies of future events rather than the history of the 1st century church.


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09 Oct 2023, 5:48 am

My former Christian religion doesn’t have strong feelings regarding Israel. Something weird: they believe in pacifism to an extreme extent - that people should leave situations like this entirely up to God to fix. They even think that fighting in a good war, like WWII, was wrong. If their choice is jail or fighting in a just war, they’d go to jail. If you apply that to the current situation, yikes.

There’s a lot of variety when it comes to Christian beliefs as there is with anything else.

It should be noted that the Bible is not a single book but a collection of books. Reading the collection of books several times is part of the reason why I became an atheist. I would not want to worship a god who is responsible for/condones certain passages. A bigger reason why I’m an atheist is due to a lack of evidence, though.

This is all extremely off-topic. I’d like to imagine a world, including Israel, with no religion. Maybe in a few centuries.



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09 Oct 2023, 5:57 am

magz wrote:
What keeps puzzling me is:
Where was Mosad?
One of the most famous intelligence services in the world - how could preparations for something like this slip their attention?
What - apart from the judicary "reform" - is wrong inside Israel?

Egypt intelligence official says Israel ignored repeated warnings of ‘something big’
Quote:
Mounting questions over Israel’s massive intelligence failure to anticipate and prepare for an surprise Hamas assault were compounded Monday when an Egyptian intelligence official said that Jerusalem had ignored repeated warnings that the Gaza-based terror group was planning “something big.”

The Egyptian official said Egypt, which often serves as a mediator between Israel and Hamas, had spoken repeatedly with the Israelis about “something big,” without elaborating.

He said Israeli officials were focused on the West Bank and played down the threat from Gaza. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government is made up of supporters of West Bank settlers who have demanded a security crackdown there in the face of a rising tide of violence over the last 18 months.

“We have warned them an explosion of the situation is coming, and very soon, and it would be big. But they underestimated such warnings,” the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn’t authorized to discuss the content of sensitive intelligence discussions with the media, told The Associated Press.

However, Israel was not only ignoring clear warnings from its allies.

For Palestinians in Gaza, Israel’s eyes are never very far away. Surveillance drones buzz constantly in the skies. The highly secured border is awash with security cameras and soldiers on guard. Intelligence agencies work sources and cyber capabilities to draw out information.

But Israel’s eyes appeared to have been closed in the lead-up to the surprise onslaught by the Hamas terror group, which broke through Israeli border barriers and sent hundreds of terrorists into Israel to carry out a brazen attack that killed over 700 people and wounded over 2,000.

Israel’s intelligence agencies have gained an aura of invincibility over the decades because of a string of achievements.

“This is a major failure,” said Yaakov Amidror, a former national security adviser to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. “This operation actually proves that the [intelligence] abilities in Gaza were no good.”

Amidror declined to offer an explanation for the failure, saying lessons must be learned when the dust settles.

Some say it is too early to pin the blame solely on an intelligence failure. They point to a wave of low-level violence in the West Bank that shifted some military resources there and the political chaos roiling the country over steps by Netanyahu’s far-right government to overhaul the judiciary. The controversial plan has threatened the cohesion of the IDF, seen as the people’s army.

But the apparent lack of prior knowledge of Hamas’s plot will likely be seen as a prime culprit in the chain of events that led to the deadliest attack against Israelis in decades.

Israel withdrew troops and settlers from the Gaza Strip in 2005, stripping it of a close handle on the happenings in the territory. But even after Hamas overran Gaza in 2007, Israel appeared to maintain its edge, using technological and human intelligence.

It claimed to know the precise locations of Hamas leadership and appeared to prove it through the targeted killing of terror leaders in surgical strikes, sometimes while they slept in their bedrooms. Israel has known where to strike underground tunnels used by Hamas to ferry around fighters and arms, destroying miles (kilometers) of the concealed passageways.

Despite those abilities, Hamas was able to keep its plan under wraps. The ferocious attack, which likely took months of planning and meticulous training and involved coordination among multiple terror groups, appeared to have gone under Israel’s intelligence radar.

Amir Avivi, a retired Israeli general, said that without a foothold inside Gaza, Israel’s security services have come to rely increasingly on technological means to gain intelligence. He said terrorists in Gaza have found ways to evade that technological intelligence gathering, giving Israel an incomplete picture of their intentions.

“The other side learned to deal with our technological dominance and they stopped using technology that could expose it,” said Avivi, who served as a conduit for intelligence materials under a former military chief of staff. Avivi is president and founder of Israel Defense and Security Forum, a hawkish group of former military commanders.

“They’ve gone back to the Stone Age,” he said, explaining that terrorists weren’t using phones or computers and were conducting their sensitive business in rooms specially guarded from technological espionage or going underground.

But Avivi said the failure extends beyond just intelligence gathering and Israel’s security services failed to put together an accurate picture from the intelligence they were receiving, based on what he said was a misconception surrounding Hamas’s intentions.

Israel’s security establishment has in recent years increasingly seen Hamas as an actor interested in governing, seeking to develop Gaza’s economy and improving the standard of living of Gaza’s 2.3 million people. But Avivi and others say the truth is that Hamas, which openly calls for Israel’s destruction, sees that aim as its priority.

In practice, hundreds if not thousands of Hamas men were preparing for a surprise attack for months, without that having leaked,” wrote Amos Harel, a defense commentator, in the daily Haaretz. “The results are catastrophic.”

Israel has also been preoccupied and torn apart by Netanyahu’s judicial overhaul plan. Netanyahu had received repeated warnings by his defense chiefs, as well as several former leaders of the country’s intelligence agencies, that the divisive plan was chipping away at the cohesion of the country’s security services.

Martin Indyk, who served as a special envoy for Israeli-Palestinian negotiations during the Obama administration, said internal divisions over the legal changes was an aggravating factor that contributed to the Israelis being caught off guard.

“That roiled the IDF in a way that was, I think, we discovered was a huge distraction,” he said.


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MaxE
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09 Oct 2023, 6:53 am

Reposting.

Quote:
I don't think any of this would have happened were Trump's f**kbuddy Netanyahu not PM. I don't admire Hamas' tactics, sorry, but invading an important mosque during Friday prayers, even having excellent intelligence that Hitler himself is in there, is a dick move and could only have happened under Netanyahu, so he has Jewish victims' blood on his hands as much as Hamas leadership.

It like Netanyahu wanted this war.


Treason most foul.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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09 Oct 2023, 7:14 am

MaxE wrote:
Reposting.

Quote:
I don't think any of this would have happened were Trump's f**kbuddy Netanyahu not PM. I don't admire Hamas' tactics, sorry, but invading an important mosque during Friday prayers, even having excellent intelligence that Hitler himself is in there, is a dick move and could only have happened under Netanyahu, so he has Jewish victims' blood on his hands as much as Hamas leadership.

It like Netanyahu wanted this war.


Treason most foul.



Yet the majority of Israeli keeps electing (indirectly via the party) him.
The same how the majority of Palestinians elected Hamas.



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09 Oct 2023, 7:34 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
MaxE wrote:
Reposting.

Quote:
I don't think any of this would have happened were Trump's f**kbuddy Netanyahu not PM. I don't admire Hamas' tactics, sorry, but invading an important mosque during Friday prayers, even having excellent intelligence that Hitler himself is in there, is a dick move and could only have happened under Netanyahu, so he has Jewish victims' blood on his hands as much as Hamas leadership.

It like Netanyahu wanted this war.


Treason most foul.



Yet the majority of Israeli keeps electing (indirectly via the party) him.
The same how the majority of Palestinians elected Hamas.

Maybe it's humans in general who don't deserve to survive.


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09 Oct 2023, 7:52 am

MaxE wrote:
Reposting.

Quote:
I don't think any of this would have happened were Trump's f**kbuddy Netanyahu not PM. I don't admire Hamas' tactics, sorry, but invading an important mosque during Friday prayers, even having excellent intelligence that Hitler himself is in there, is a dick move and could only have happened under Netanyahu, so he has Jewish victims' blood on his hands as much as Hamas leadership.

It like Netanyahu wanted this war.


Treason most foul.


Classic POS is when someone in his position gets popularity for a war he created.


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09 Oct 2023, 7:56 am

MaxE wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
MaxE wrote:
Reposting.

Quote:
I don't think any of this would have happened were Trump's f**kbuddy Netanyahu not PM. I don't admire Hamas' tactics, sorry, but invading an important mosque during Friday prayers, even having excellent intelligence that Hitler himself is in there, is a dick move and could only have happened under Netanyahu, so he has Jewish victims' blood on his hands as much as Hamas leadership.

It like Netanyahu wanted this war.


Treason most foul.



Yet the majority of Israeli keeps electing (indirectly via the party) him.
The same how the majority of Palestinians elected Hamas.

Maybe it's humans in general who don't deserve to survive.

What makes you think that? It seems a bit extreme.



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09 Oct 2023, 7:58 am

TwilightPrincess wrote:
MaxE wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
MaxE wrote:
Reposting.

Quote:
I don't think any of this would have happened were Trump's f**kbuddy Netanyahu not PM. I don't admire Hamas' tactics, sorry, but invading an important mosque during Friday prayers, even having excellent intelligence that Hitler himself is in there, is a dick move and could only have happened under Netanyahu, so he has Jewish victims' blood on his hands as much as Hamas leadership.

It like Netanyahu wanted this war.


Treason most foul.



Yet the majority of Israeli keeps electing (indirectly via the party) him.
The same how the majority of Palestinians elected Hamas.

Maybe it's humans in general who don't deserve to survive.

What makes you think that? It seems a bit extreme.

It's just that in this case we see both Israelis and Gazans behaving exactly like Americans. And everywhere else there's elective government, we see the same thing.

Or else there's already autocracy.

Maybe no hope.


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TwilightPrincess
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09 Oct 2023, 8:05 am

It’s a strange thing to say that humans, in general, don’t deserve to survive in this particular thread that’s about people dying.

In any event, people often make poor choices because they are ill-informed and indoctrinated. That doesn’t mean that they don’t deserve to survive.



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09 Oct 2023, 8:07 am

^^^ likes Kirchgauers post above about concepts on true Israel ^^^


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09 Oct 2023, 8:07 am

TwilightPrincess wrote:
It’s a strange thing to say that humans, in general, don’t deserve to survive in this particular thread that’s about people dying.

In any event, people often make poor choices because they are ill-informed and indoctrinated. That doesn’t mean that they don’t deserve to survive.

If they truly deserve to survive then they should start acting in their self-interest.


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TwilightPrincess
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09 Oct 2023, 8:12 am

MaxE wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
It’s a strange thing to say that humans, in general, don’t deserve to survive in this particular thread that’s about people dying.

In any event, people often make poor choices because they are ill-informed and indoctrinated. That doesn’t mean that they don’t deserve to survive.

If they truly deserve to survive then they should start acting in their self-interest.

Ummm… People often think they are “acting in their self-interest.” This circles back to being ill-informed and/or indoctrinated. How can you make a judgement call about who “truly deserves to survive?”

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Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.