What are the odds of this being another William Freund?

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Hahahaha... you've just made a contradiction.

So people with autism are incapable of helping others, are we? If that's the case, how come you are helping a dead person so well?

I agree that the people here could've been a bit more tolerant towards Will Freund, but that doesn't give you the right to pass the blame on other people who have no control over his actions. Who the hell do you think you are?

As for Wilfruend... Well, what a pathetic man. He could've made a difference to this harsh, cruel world; he, like all young people, are the future of his planet, no matter what are difficulties may be. But no, he chose absolute destruction of his own self and other unfortuante people's lives; he was weak.

I've got no sympathy for those who chose to embrace nothingness as if it became their newfound virtue.

You're doing it too: you're starting to hate yourself for who you are -- what nature intended for you to be.

Last edited by thepeaguy on 30 Oct 2005, 11:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I think Ante needs to be banned from these forums. His insistence that AS is a mental illness is preposterous, and detrimental to a lot of people who visit this website. It is scientific fact that autism is not a mental illness. Its like saying being born female is an illness; fact is, I wouldn't be surprised if you believed that too. Ante, do you even have any kind of autism? I see in some of your posts you've claimed to have AS. Its true, you're not wrong, that autism can be accompanied by various mental illnesses, but you can't go around claiming that every AS is a psychopath just waiting to break and kill people. Why don't you follow your own advice and go get yourself incarcerated in a mental institute? Would you consider yourself a psychopath?

How about those school massacres, like Columbine? They weren't AS. They were NT. Perhaps we should go claiming that NT is a mental illness. The only thing that makes that idea seem laughable, is that NT is considered the norm. Those killers were the exception, not the rule. Same with AS. William Freund is the exception, not the rule. There's thousands of people with AS in the world. How many people with AS have you heard that've gone around killing people?

Furthermore, what do you propose people do? Real life doesn't work like you envision. You can't just go and call 'professionals' on someone who you only know via the internet, who may or may not be who they say they are, or mean what they say. Do you know what they'd say to you? They'd kick you out on your ass and laugh at you. The only thing people can do, is try to be friendly to them. A lot of WillFreund's posts were complaints that noone was PMing him. Where do you think that problem started? A long time before he came to WrongPlanet, that's for sure. So really, who's the problem? The NT's who didn't like him because he was different, for the majority of his life? Or the AS people on WrongPlanet, who knew him only a short while?

The only problem people with autism have, is that people like yourself exist.

Ante, I want you apologise to every person here you have accused of for being responsible of Will Freund's death; they didn't deserve it; they're not evil.

Not the only problem, but certainly a big problem.

The vast majority of autistic people do not murder, in fact we're more likely to be murdered -- by "sane" "neurotypical" non-disabled people no less, who somehow never ever get stereotyped this way. The vast majority of residents of his neighborhood do not murder. The vast majority of men do not murder. For that matter the vast majority of people diagnosed with psychosis or mental illness do not murder, in fact again are more likely to be victimized than the other way around. Whether or not it's normal to be any of these things, whether or not it's okay to be any of these things, the vast majority of people in these categories do not murder and it's bigoted to say they/we do.

To sit around amplifying prejudice like this and advocating negative images of an entire group of people based on the actions of a tiny minority is inexcusable.

I don't quite know how I'm going to say this, but I have to try.

I have been sitting back watching this thread since it started, and I cannot help but notice that there has been a lot of blaming, pointing the finger, and guilt tripping taking place. I hate seeing such division, especially when it's coming out of a community that usually does such a great job at being there for each other. If there was ever a time to be there for each other, now is it.

NOBODY is to blame for Will's actions. Guilt after such a tragic event is like dessert after maincourse: you don't need it, it is not healthy, and yet it is incredibly common and normal. However, unlike dessert, there is no yummy aftertaste. Any one of us could sit and wonder if things would have been different if we had only made the extra effort to befriend Will, or if we had believed him implicitly. Perhaps they would have. However, the fact remains that none of us, not even our resident witch Vivi, had the power to foretell the future. There is a world full of people that made an impact on Will; that's what people do, and no amount of wondering about what sort of an impact we had is going to change the situation. For those of us who would point the finger at another person for failing to act in a faultless manner towards Will, please take a moment to do that literally: you will soon realise that in order to point one finger at someone else, you must first point three fingers at yourself. You would be much wiser to point all five fingers and turn it into a handshake.

I am aware that Ante believes the media should be alerted to Will's having Aspergers, suggesting that it is a severe mental illness that caused his actions. I disagree. Whilst Aspergers may have made life harder for Will, I do not believe it caused him to make the decisions he made. No matter how you we look at it, there was not one person here that had the power to make Will do what he did, nor can we say that he did what he did because he had Aspergers. Take a look at Donna Williams; she grew up in a disfunctional family with an abusive mother, she left home early where she was the victim of sexual abuse, and she is Autistic, yet she is also a famous authour who is happily married. I also know that if I told all of you to go out and do what Will did, we would be very unlikely to have even one person do as much. On the flipside, I know there are many people who lead seemingly happy lives with nothing wanting, until they commit suicide for no apparent reason. Whilst I'm sure Will's Aspergers and people's relationships with him had an impact on his life, they are in no way to blame for his decision yesterday. I cannot help but feel that the media would only distort any information regarding Will's Aspergers and use it to openly slander a community that, for the most part, consists of caring, albeit atypical people. If anything, I believe the exclusion and misunderstanding of people with Aspergers is far more debilitating than the 'illness' itself.

As tragic as yesterday's incident was, (and at the risk of sounding like Mary *winks at Mockingbird*), I believe that we have an opportunity to learn and grow here. This is not the first time I have been aware of an undercurrent of distrust in WrongPlanet. I have read several other threads where members have stated that they disbelieve what another member has said. As a community for people on the Autism Spectrum, many of us have had experience of being victimised because of our naivette, and have learnt to compensate by being wary of people. Many of us have experienced threads that have appeared serious in nature, only to have the original authour inform us on the fifth page that it was all a hoax intended to belittle those of us who have difficulty reading between the lines. As a result, many of us have become skeptical of others, and some of us disregarded Will's posts as trolling. However, I implore each and every one of you to not fall into this trap. As embarassing as it may be to realise that someone has played a cruel joke at your expense, this is nothing when compared to the feelings of guilt and remorse of discovering that we accused an innocent person of lying. Personally, I think that there is no shame at all in being innocently mislead. Thought at times frustrating, it is only natural, and quite common in people on the Spectrum. WrongPlanet of all places should be a haven where we are free to let down our guard and take things on face value. I think that is is one of the good traits of Aspergers that we have a tendancy to 'tell it how it is' and be implicitly trusting. Anyone who abuses this trust shows an indictment on themselves, not on me; it would be like laughing at a person in a wheelchair because they cannot walk. Well DUH!

As for the appropriateness of discussion regarding suicide on WrongPlanet, it is a question that many of us live with, as it is a product of the depression and isolation that often accompanies Aspergers. I think that whilst discussing depression and suicide is understandable, promoting violence is not. If, Heaven forbid, another situation arises in the future where there is a person talking in favour of shooting rampages, murder and suicide, perhaps that person needs to be given the opportunity to explain their feelings in a constructive way, talking about how they feel and why they feel that way. Will didn't seem to be asking whether it was a good idea to go on a shooting rampage, but rather to be telling us what he would do. THAT is the crucial difference I believe. I have seen lots of posts on here about people who want to die and feel miserable, but I don't think this is a place to promote violence.

As always, I risk critique in what I wrote. I am struggling immensly with what has happened, but I couldn't bear to watch WrongPlanet cutting itself down. Please note that I used the term 'we' throughout my post when referring to people who have placed blame and people who have had blame placed on them. This is because we are a community, and we are all in this together. I am not suggesting that we all have to agree on the same thing, but please, let's not attack one another. Whilst what Ante said made my skin crawl and my anger flare, he is still one of us. Besides, how will banning people who see Aspergers as a negative teach them to see it in a more positive light?

On a more positive note, I lit three candles, for Will and the Smiths last night, as well as folded three cranes. Might I suggest that for anyone who is grieving, this helped a lot for me. The crane is a symbol of peace and health, most commonly associated with the Hiroshima bombing, but it also works for me in these situations. The Japanese believed that when a person has folded 1000 paper cranes, they get one wish. There is a story of a young girl named Sadako who contracted leukaemia and folded cranes so she could wish to be well. She died before she finished them, but her friends finished them for her and erected a monument in the Hiroshima Park, with a plaque saying "This is our cry, this is our prayer, peace to the world". If anyone is interested, we could easy fold 1000 cranes between us and ship them to Will's family, just to say we care. Let me know if this appeals.

Being quite new to the forum, I've found these events and the aftermath "interesting" (best choice of words I can think of)

My initial reaction was that the thread where Willfreund asked for money was insensitive in assuming he was a troll.
I soon realised that while true, he had serious problems and he had made up his mind about his actions long before coming here. As mentioned earlier, this is not the best of places to seek help - that was with the people near to him that he apparantly could not trust or communicate with.

So to all those who feel guilt, DON'T. I doubt the outcome could have been changed in the time frame involved.

The best thing that can be learned by this is that this is a site for people who have problems with social interaction so leniency needs to be shown for inappropriate posts. Rather than dismissing, perhaps advice as to inappropriateness and steering the poster into more constructive posting. If this fails then yes start making assumptions.

Well said, PhoenixKitten.

Wow! From the controvertial Sean, high praise indeed! (Meant in all good humour: we love ya Sean!) Sorry it was so long folks; the people that diagnosed me said some BS about me being verbose, but I KNOW that's not true!

Ante - I was looking at your profile and I noticed that you state you are diagnosed with AS - and I'm wondering if that isn't why you are so insistent that it is a mental illness and that people with AS are too mentally ill to help other people . . . is this just an excuse for doing nothing yourself? Or giving yourself an excuse for negative behavor? i.e. I can't help it - I'm mentally ill . . .

I'm a personal responsibility freak - that is why I have the job I have and why I'm a vegan - I guess it is a side effect of my AS - I am really not terribly concerned with the ways other people are dealing with the world - I am concerned with how I effect the world and I believe I am completely responsible for any actions I take . . .
Therefore, I am not into excuses for behavior . . . trust me, even putting the debate about AS as a mental illness aside - I've got a couple of other problems that are undeniably mental illness - if I wanted to use those as excuses for my behavior I could . . .

Will had to make the choice to buy a gun, load it, walk out of his house, and shoot those people . . . that can be short circuted at any point . . . I can't accept that a person is not responsible for a series of behaviors like that regardless of the way their nervous system is functioning . . .

I believe the desire to designate Aspergers as a mental illness stems from the accumulated negative effects on the body and mind of those suffering from social rejection and inner struggle. With time, these forces erode our sense of boundaries and consequently our sense of security diminishes up to the point of personal collapse. The question for some is not whether Aspergers is inherently positive or negative (or whether the balance is favorable), but rather it concerns what quality of life we can strive for. If you have eroded your coping mechanisms, forsaken any chance of a constructive or fulfilling future, then the notion of death becomes an easy one to grasp and accept. As we have seen, some even tumble down the downward spiral out of their own volition because there is no alternative in their minds.

For those persons who are, figuratively, "at the end of their ropes" there must be that helping hand to guide and pull you away from the wreckage of your life. I suspect that the desire to label Aspergers as a mental illness flowers strongly from a desire to receive more help - and not out of spite or self loathing. It would not be wise to silence those of us who view who seek our lives as failures or as a series of misfortunes. Those of us believe Asperger's co-morbid conditions can be devastating and require professional help should not be shunned. We do not seek to stigmatize AS so to doom those with better management skills and coping skills.

There is room for discourse. There is no reason for anyone to be banned because of the sentiments expressed in this thread.

As for the events of the day - woe to Aspies. May none of us travel down this beaten path while we can help each other with a bit of openness and wisdom.

This turn of events is truly shocking. However, I honestly do not believe that anyone here could have done anything differently or made any difference to that one very troubled young man. Ante, you are so wrong to start making accusations towards anyone here, let alone to be using these events as a platform for your clearly controversial comments. I hope you can learn to keep your opinions to yourself at a time when we really need to come together as a community rather than self-destruct as we appear to be doing presently.

At the very least, I think comments on the causes and nature of AS belong in a different thread at a different time.

Let's not forget here that nobody here is in possesion of a full clinical assessment of Will Freund and are unable to say if there was prevalent mental health conditions or co-morbid disorders that caused this tragedy. His AS may or may not have had anything to do with this sad outcome.

I do think we should let the authorities know he came here. This is horrid! I wish I could have done more! I was just too scared, being a tad younger than most on this site, but I really wish we ALL could have done more to save this young man. I'm really quite scared.

Lots of people die. You wouldn't believe how many people suicide in a week. In a population of around 1 million, around 4 people suicide per week. Most of us never knew him anyway, why the big deal? Everyone has their own choices to make, he made his. What makes me angry, is not that he decided to kill himself, but that he had to end the lives of 2 other people, too. If anything, feel sad for those 2 people. There was a car crash a couple of months ago, here. They decided to kill themselves, and so drove into the other lane, killing an entire family. Its pretty damn selfish to end the life of others, because you want to end your own. I have no compassion for Will at all.

It's attitudes like yours and peaguy's that would make someone want to make sure they took a few as*holes with them. You dont know the full circumstances so id wait till you find out more first, regardless it is inconceivable that these people deserved this so i do feel sorry for the families involved and WillFruend because he had serious problems in the head but i dont feel anything but contempt for pricks that find it funny to goad suicidal people or be callous about it and say "no big deal , im alright matey". It is a big deal to those who are affected by suicide.

BTW Asperger's is down officially as a mental illness by most governments so to try to get someone banned for expressing that opinion or any other's of Ante's right or wrong is BS. Anyone who tries to get another member banned usually tends to be the people who need banning IMHO. Critisicism is acceptable but no-one here is Mary-bloody-Poppins so they shouldnt be acting like it and should accept when they have done something wrong. I know i have done plenty myself but at least i can admit it sometimes.

Last edited by eamonn on 31 Oct 2005, 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

The story is evolving on this in the press now:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-shooting31oct31,0,155274.story?coll=la-home-headlines

I'm thinking that once the enquiry is complete, Asperger's will be mentioned with an implication of blame...

PhoenixKitten - that was a great post. I echo your sentiments and hope our community can move on from this together. The energy spent pointing fingers at each other would be better spent sparing a thought for Will's family and the Smiths.