[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.

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Then in that case the there is some culpability whereby Netanyahu created conditions that gave rise to HAMAS so must take some of the blame for their rise to power. But Palestinians will always be antagonistic toward an Israeli state (from 1948) and Palestinians must accept they made the wrong decision endorsing a terrorist organisation to represent them instead of trying to accommodate Israel and try to focus on their families, employment and health.

Human behavior in general can be understood when it’s taken in context, especially on a macro level. It’s so easy to label large groups of people as good or bad, but perhaps if we were in their shoes, we’d behave the same way.

Some seem inclined to pick on Palestine for voting for Hamas, but the reality is that maybe some of us would’ve done the same if we were in poverty, oppressed, etc. and Hamas appeared to be offering promises and solutions, especially if we felt let down by the previous leadership and were indoctrinated with certain beliefs as many of us are.

People often join cults when they are going through hard times. That happened in my own family. Since I know the background info, their behavior makes perfect sense to me.

We’re all human and aren’t intrinsically that different from each other. A little understanding and compassion would be helpful. People are dying. It could be us if we were unlucky enough to call such a war torn and oppressed nation home. I care about the people in Palestine AND Israel. I just don’t care for the leadership in either place at the moment.

I should also add that not every Palestinian is (or was) pro-Hamas. Also, many children have died. Once again, you might want to consider refraining from the use of generalizations. It’s not cool.

Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 02 Nov 2023, 9:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.

https://www.savethechildren.it/blog-not ... alestinese
From "Save The Children"
The article is from May 3, 2023 /October 7, 2023, and makes you understand better why Hamas terrorism exists.

Which I underline: I condemn, I do not justify in any way.

But the data would be this:


"Following the Israeli Declaration of Independence, the first Arab-Israeli war broke out on May 14, 1948, ending with the victory and establishment of the State of Israel.

Since then, several other wars have tormented the populations living there But what is the current situation in the Occupied Palestinian Territories?

After more than 50 years of Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, humanitarian needs remain enormous: approximately 2.45 million people require humanitarian assistance in the occupied Palestinian territories.

What Is Happening Iin the occupied Palestinian territories?
The Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT), consisting of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, have been occupied by Israel since 1967.

The main cause of the protection crisis and related humanitarian needs in the Occupied Palestinian Territories is the military occupation of the Government of Israel: Palestinians are facing an unprecedented humanitarian, protection and human rights crisis, the main factors of which are the systematic denial of Palestinian human rights, ongoing conflict and frequent outbreaks of violence.

Israel's 16-year blockade of the Gaza Strip and its ongoing settlement policy in the West Bank are other key factors that have contributed to the displacement of at least 2.9 million Palestinians, 50% of whom are children and girls, constantly experienced the risk of conflict and violence, displacement and denial of access to the means of subsistence. The blockade of Gaza is one of the harshest impacts of the conflict in the Eastern Territories and punishes Gazans with what has been described as the largest open-air prison in the world.

GAZA STRIP: THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE BLOCKAGE

16 years of land, sea and air blockade and four major conflicts have had a serious impact on the environment, infrastructure, services and basic life prospects in the Gaza Strip, depriving more than one million Palestinian boys and girls of their their fundamental rights. The split between the Palestinian Authority and the de facto authorities in Gaza has significantly hindered state-building efforts and contributed substantially to the fragmentation of the West Bank from Gaza.

In recent years, the situation has been exacerbated by cuts in overall aid and made worse by measures taken by the Palestinian Authority. The blockade imposed by Israel has paralyzed the economy and basic services, including healthcare and education. The combined pressures are having a devastating impact on the economy and almost all critical services, including medicines, food supplies and education.

We are deeply concerned by the latest escalation of violence between Palestinian armed groups and Israeli forces, in Israel and Gaza. According to data released by the Gaza and Israeli Ministries of Health respectively, since October 7, more than 3,257 children have been reported killed, including at least 3,195 in Gaza, 33 in the West Bank and 29 in Israel. Children represent more than 40 percent of the 7,703 people killed in Gaza and more than a third of all victims in the Occupied Palestinian Territories and Israel. The death toll is probably much higher, as one could add around 1,000 missing children in Gaza who are presumed buried under the rubble. Find the updated situation on Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories: new escalation of violence. *

THE DENIED RIGHTS OF PALESTINIANS IN THE WEST BANK
Palestinians in the West Bank are subject to a complex system of control made up of barriers. The physical barriers concern the separation wall, checkpoints, road blocks. The bureaucratic barriers, however, are permits and air closures. The system of control to which Palestinians in the West Bank are subjected limits their right to freedom of movement, undermines their livelihoods and increases their dependence on humanitarian aid. Palestinians can only legally build in less than 1% of Area C – and even within this 1%, permits are mostly refused by Israeli authorities.

Many Palestinians across the West Bank also feel at risk of displacement and/or forced relocation due to a coercive environment generated by Israeli policies.

Indeed, Palestinians in the West Bank tell United Nations agencies and international NGOs that they continue to face threats to their lives, physical safety and freedom due to policies and practices related to the Israeli occupation, which have a serious impact on the civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights of the Palestinian people.

These practices include the demolition, or threat of demolition, of homes, schools and livelihood shelters due to the lack of building permits which, as mentioned above, are almost impossible to obtain.

In the Occupied Palestinian Territories, incidents of denial of humanitarian access have been reported and verified. It has the second highest number of such incidents, with 1,582 denials of humanitarian access recorded in 2021.

2023 marks a record-breaking year for Palestinian children, a grim milestone with on average more than one Palestinian child killed per week.

THE SITUATION OF CHILDREN IN THE OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES
The economic, social and political situation of over 50 years of occupation by Israel, combined with ongoing conflicts, have continued to have serious implications for children.

Girls and boys from the Gaza Strip who need to access specialized medical care outside Gaza must apply for a permit. In the first six months of 2023, nearly 400 children in Gaza, or at least two children per day, were unable to receive necessary medical care in the West Bank, leaving them without access to life-saving surgeries or urgent medications.

To better understand the current situation of children in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, here are some points:

Approximately 2.45 million people need humanitarian assistance in the OPT, and 1.2 million of them are children.
Reports from the OPT and Israel show that 1,216 children were killed or maimed, including 1,207 Palestinians and 9 Israelis.
Among these, 88 children were recorded as killed, 59 of them by airstrikes carried out by Israeli forces during the escalation of hostilities in Gaza in May 2021.
1.3 million children in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are exposed to movement restrictions, regular threats from settlers, harassment at checkpoints and intimidation on their way to school. Boys and girls as young as 12 are arrested and militarily detained by Israel.
It is estimated that between 500 and 1000 minors are detained by the Israeli military every year. 4 out of 5 minors are beaten and almost half of them are injured at the time of arrest.
The Occupied Palestinian Territories are included in the list of the 10 worst countries for children to live in: approximately 449 million girls and boys lived in conflict areas in 2021. Afghanistan, together with the Occupied Palestinian Territories, recorded the highest number of children killed or maimed due to conflict in 2021. Learn more about our Children Under Attack campaign.

PALESTINIAN CHILDREN AND ATTACKS ON EDUCATION
Nearly half a million Palestinian boys and girls cannot access quality education in a safe and child-friendly environment: school demolitions, confiscation of equipment, movement restrictions, double shifts, attacks by Israeli forces near schools or internally with the use of live ammunition and tear gas, failure to prioritize education and insufficient funding are just some of the main obstacles.

Palestinian boys and girls have already told us that the dangers they face when traveling to and from school in the West Bank deny them the right to education. These repeated incidents make them feel scared, anxious and stressed, and some of them have experienced physical and emotional symptoms such as uncontrollable shaking, fainting, loss of self-confidence and hopelessness. More than 80 schools in the West Bank face the daily presence of Israeli forces, and more than 58 schools are currently under a demolition or stop-use order.

The Occupied Palestinian Territories recorded the highest number of attacks on schools and hospitals in conflict situations in 2021, with 289 incidents verified, followed by 154 in Mali and 151 in Afghanistan.

Our intervention in the Occupied Palestinian Territories
We have been in the occupied Palestinian territories since 1973.

Our team works throughout the Palestinian territory, with over 30 partners, to ensure that girls and boys survive, have the opportunity to learn, and are protected from all types of abuse and that all actors commit to respect the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Children and Adolescents (UNCRC).

We support pre-school education and the transition to primary school, in close contact with local authorities and communities, to improve the coverage and quality of early childhood development services for children aged 0-6 in the West Bank and Gaza.

In 2021 we reached 7,710 people. Find out more about our Pre-Primary Education CentresWe create a supportive and safe environment for people with disabilities, especially girls and boys, young people, women and their families, so that they have equal access to services and enjoy fundamental rights and freedoms.

In 2021 we reached 1,379 people. We strengthen the protection system in the occupied territories, both in the West Bank, where we work to strengthen the response to minors involved in military attacks, demolitions and occupation-related violence, and in Gaza, where we adopt a NEXUS approach: we do not limit ourselves to respond to the emergency, but let's create the foundations for medium-long term development by investing in the skills of young people and adolescents.

All parties must put the rights of boys and girls first. We urge the State of Israel, as the occupying power and primary duty bearer, as well as the Palestinian Authority and the de facto authorities in Gaza to protect children and respect their rights, in accordance with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. man, IHRL and international humanitarian law, including the right to protection and access to health care and quality education.


We urge the Government of Israel to endorse the Safe Schools Declaration (SSD) and to contextualize and implement its guidelines as part of its obligations as an occupying power in the West Bank, including Jerusalem, and Gaza.
​


How would Israel defend itself or attack if not with guerrilla warfare of that kind?

I translate for you from Save the children, sorry but I don't have the English version.

Maybe also sorry for my errors in the translation.
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Hi, sorry but some of the lines aren't clear to me.

That is: I don't understand the logical meaning of it.

I mean in general, not just yours.

Sarcasm belongs to autistic people, they understand it.

But I have two interpretations.

1) The post is sarcastic.
2) The post is not sarcastic so it could briefly mean some meanings that escape me.
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I'll answer you by doing a mix of the two things.

Sometimes I make ironic jokes and when they ask me to explain them, I "say" to myself...Huck! You're finished! Because if you have to explain an ironic joke it means you're broke!

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The thing I dislike are sarcastic posts in response to serious posts.

Because in this case the topic is sensitive.

Not knowing you well enough, I can't understand whether your posts are intended to make fun, or are very sharp and therefore need to be evaluated very carefully before replying.

<>
In forums when there are no topics they usually use question-style jokes.

(Here's the logical connection)
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I know American history quite well, not very well I would say.

But for example, I think your independence from the UK is much more important than the French revolution.

You were more interesting and were used as evidence for theirs 13 years later.
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You are such a composite nation that Benigni didn't really understand.

In a sentence from one of his films "All we have to do is cry", Roberto says a sentence.
He sees Cristoforo Colombo leaving and says that it is absolutely necessary to stop him, because if he discovers you, your evolution will kill the Native Americans.

Unfortunately it was exactly chosen to carry out a genocide.

The methods of extermination and segregation implemented against the native North Americans, according to the scholar John Toland, were taken as a model (along with the Armenian genocide and other exterminations or forms of racism such as apartheid or racism against blacks and minorities in the United States) by Adolf Hitler in the implementation of the Holocaust against Jews, Roma and other ethnic and political minorities and, in general, of racial policy in Nazi Germany.

​But this happened throughout the continent, the estimate is around 100,000,000 people.

Those USA should be 15000000.

Make a logical connection with genocide and genocide...


It's not that we were better, let's be clear: Italy has also committed genocides.

And that's what we need to avoid.
Yes: the answer would be yes.
They should return the lands.

Life and history can no longer give it back to him.

There were three times as many Native Americans as Jews who officially exterminated a monster called Hitler.
That with Mussolini between racial laws and other systems he killed at least as many (therefore not only Jews) the estimates vary around 17 million people victims of Nazi Fascism (civilians, not defenseless military people).

But the Italian estimate lacks another million: so it's not that we are better than you at this.


Precisely for this reason I understand mass extermination more.

There are so many examples from other nations that I won't cite them.

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The meaning of Hamas is that something else would exist if there were no Hamas.

Because terrorism (without beating around the bush, that's what Hamas does)... has a root... that root is not having a chance of life otherwise.

How to fight a state that is militarily 1000 times more destructive than Palestinian people?
We are in 10th place in the military ranking.
You in 1st place,
Israel in 18th place.
I don't think Palestine appears in the top one hundred positions.

Last edited by Huckleberry Finn on 02 Nov 2023, 9:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.

What does that mean?

I'll edit out the rest of your post and focus on this one sticky point. Every Palestinian knows that the 1948 creation of the state of israel involved the dispossession of land from Palestinians. Yes there were treaties made but guess who broke them. The Palestinians. Why? because they want their land back. Israel wanted a buffer to protect their own civilians (why wouldn't they) so they created the blockade around Gaza and the West Bank to protect themselves.

The sticking point over sovereign control over land is that occupation has always been 9/10 of the law. You know who else practiced this? the United States and Australia. They was founded over the genocide of the indigenous populations and the deliberate peopling of "empty lands:" with settlers (sound familiar).

The critical point is that land rights for Palestinians > 50 years old, it's actually 73 years old. The terrorist attack on Israel has little to nothing to do with the other issue, It's about those financing HAMAS trying to strategically weaken the Israeli state and sever newly formed alliances with their middle eastern neighbors by sending in terrorists to murder and rape Jewish women and children in order to set of the current ground offensive.

Simply spouting historic acts by Israel and tying it to connect it to HAMAS's actions lacks any credibility when you examine what HAMAS's objectives were.

Other people's problems are other people's problems. I just wanna grill bro.

Not that I don't empathize with becoming burnt out because the world is a messy, depressing s**thole on many levels and hyperfocusing on that stuff doesn't really help anyone.

I think the Palestinians lost their way back in the 1950s. I agree most want what's best for their children but as a collective group they have made the wrong choices fed decades of crap about "Arab nationalism" not realising that their own Arab "friends" have treated them worse than the state of Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and ... a_massacre

You missed the point of my post completely. It could be roughly summed up by:

I agree with this sentiment. But the Arab-Israeli conflict is also not that terribly different to other internecine conflicts around the world where individuals operate under groupthink rather than think for themselves, conform to unhealthy, toxic social norms. Where conflict arises many people make the wrong decisions and many innocents are left to face the consequences.

In this respect the Palestinians and Ukrainians are hardly unique. But at least they make the news.

It's like they suffered some sort of catastrophe.

Hyperfocusing is what we do best isn't it?

After the 1948 Palestine war, including 78% of Mandatory Palestine being declared as Israel, the expulsion and flight of 700,000 Palestinians, the related depopulation and destruction of over 500 Palestinian villages by Zionist militias and later the Israeli army

This sounds familiar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_ ... us_peoples

I guess the Palestinians are the latest in a long line

It especially seems to be the case when people insist on seeing them that way, like by making constant generalizations. It often says more about their own personal biases and prejudices than anything else.

This human tendency is often related to confirmation bias. We tend to see evidence that confirms our beliefs and reject that which doesn’t.

For instance, not ALL Palestinians are/were pro-Hamas. Also, almost half of the population are children, so…

Yes we always come back to this. Remember, I said we either deal with the here and now or go back in time and look for who is responsible and how much.

Israel is choosing to deal with the here and now on relation to the worst attack on Jewish civilians since the holocaust. plus the abduction of 200 hostages.

In the here and now on a macro level (which doesn’t mean much on an individual one), it’s an even bigger attack on Palestinian civilians. It’s a horrific situation. I don’t feel more for the victim of one nation than the other, though. They’re all people who deserve empathy and compassion.

Not casting judgement on the Palestinians in Gaza but anyone wondering why 50% of the population is under 14 years of age?

One of the biggest factors is the unusually low proportion of Palestinian women hold jobs. “It’s the place in the world where the least women work outside the home,” says Jon Pedersen of the Fafo Institute, a centre for demographic and social research in Oslo, Norway.

In addition A study published in 2006 found that despite high educational achievement among Gazan women – all have at least nine years of schooling – and relatively low and constant infant mortality rates at around 25 per 1000 births, few chose to pursue independent careers. During the Intifada uprising that began in 1987, the research found, there was a surge in marriage rates, with many educated women prepared to marry men who were less well-educated.

“Palestinian women are not having lots of children because they don’t know about contraception, or can’t access contraception,” says Sara Randall, an anthropologist at University College London, who co-authored the 2006 investigation. “So one has to conclude that they actually want lots of children.”

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... -so-young/

I would have thought if Gaza is an open air prison then why are they having so many kids?