More Idiot-Driven cuts, costing lives, making money

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Macbeth
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12 Dec 2010, 7:26 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11978002

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Coastguard centres face closure amid spending cuts

A number of coastguard control centres, which co-ordinate and manage rescue efforts across the UK, are expected to close under government spending cuts.

A government source has also confirmed that the sale of the search and rescue service to a foreign consortium will be given the go-ahead.

The Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander, told BBC One's Andrew Marr Show that Transport Secretary Philip Hammond would set out details about the service over the next few days.

But he said the government's key principle on this and other expected announcements was to "use our resources wisely so we reduce waste".

The previous government proposed that private companies should take over the running of search and rescue helicopters from the RAF and that the Sea King fleet - in which Prince William has been learning to fly - should be scrapped.

This service is currently provided by the RAF and Royal Navy, plus civilian helicopters through the Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA).

In February it was announced that the 24-hour service would be run by private consortium Soteria from 2012, from 12 bases across the UK.

The contract is worth £6bn over 25 years and will see the number of military aircrew reduced from 240 to 66, with civilian aircrew making up the shortfall.


So the idiot who failed to keep the country running when it snowed last week intends to hire in a private company to do the job currently being done by VERY experienced military pilots, make the operation smaller, and put no less a personage than Prince William out of a job. I can't help but see a need to point out how successful other "private contractors" have been in their government roles. A4E, ATOS...fraud, mismanagement, failure and increased COST. Now peoples very survival is to be placed in the hands of another such company. Never mind that Agusta-Westland can refit the Seakings at substantially less cost than it will cost to get this company in. I'll wager that nobody on the board at Agusta-Westland is best mates with a Tory MP, but I'll put money on there being one linked to Soteria.


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xenon13
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14 Dec 2010, 1:47 pm

This is corruption. Outsourcing government functions to private companies to do these things for profit by cutting staff, cutting service, but pocketing profits and presumably some of this profit is kicked back to the politicians who implemented the policy. On to the next contract and next blood sucking of the public blood. Total corruption which has become the "new normal" in the so-called Anglosphere in recent years.



Wombat
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14 Dec 2010, 10:46 pm

Dear Macbeth,
England does not have money to pay for for basic services because it is paying welfare to millions of immigrants that the country doesn't need.

One hundred years ago Britain had the biggest empire that the world has ever seen, and the biggest manufacturing base.

And now? It makes me cry.



Macbeth
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15 Dec 2010, 5:25 am

Wombat wrote:
Dear Macbeth,
England does not have money to pay for for basic services because it is paying welfare to millions of immigrants that the country doesn't need.

One hundred years ago Britain had the biggest empire that the world has ever seen, and the biggest manufacturing base.

And now? It makes me cry.


A large part of the bill is immigration. A larger part of the bill is the EU, which forces upon us even more expensive immigration. Solution? Leave the EU. Norway don't seem to have a problem with NOT being in it. In fact they are one of the most successful European nations. So we leave the EU and we can keep an effective and deployable air force, an air sea rescue service, a decent forensic service....and so on. Right now we are tantamount to crippled.


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oddone
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15 Dec 2010, 7:23 am

Macbeth

Do you spend much time at sea?

The Coastguard stations which it is proposed to merge are Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centres. These are the people you speak to on the radio, and who deploy Search and Rescue (SAR) resources to those in need. Some have already merged eg if you are off the North Coast of Scotland you will be in the Forth and Aberdeen sector. Provided they have sufficient resources, and adequate local knowledge - and it is a long way from Cape Wrath to Aberdeen - it does not matter where they are.

The UK is required to provide SAR to anyone in distress in the UK Search and Rescue Region, and has three organisations operating helicopters: HM Coastguard, The Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy. Only the Coastguard helicopters are intended to provide civilian SAR - the armed forces helicopters are intended to rescue their own crews and do civil SAR as a sideline, although in practice the vast majority of their flights are for civil SAR.

The Coastguard helicopters are already run by a private contractor, CHC Scotia, who have extensive experience operating offshore helicopter flights, both in an SAR role, and in support of the offshore oil and gas industry. They provide an excellent service using Sikorsky S-92 and three new AgustaWestland AW 139 aircraft.

The current armed forces helicopters are Sea Kings, which are coming to the end of their service life and will need to be replaced whoever runs the service. The contract to operate the replacements has been awarded to Soteria (a consortium of CHC and Sikorsky) who will use the Sikorsky S-92, a much faster and more capable aircraft than the aging Sea King.

From the point of view of a potential service user, I do not care who's logo is on the side of the helicopter, or which uniform the crew wear, provided the service is effective and free at the point of use, and I'm sure this contract will achieve that, and will release armed forces personnel for their core mission, which is defence.

You can argue about the costs of the contract, and whether it would be more cost effective to buy the helicopters (and spare aircraft) outright and employ the crews within the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, but bear in mind that the MCA is quite small - it has a turn over half that of the RNLI, which provides the majority of UK lifeboats and is funded only by charity.



Macbeth
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15 Dec 2010, 12:31 pm

oddone wrote:
Macbeth

Do you spend much time at sea?

The Coastguard stations which it is proposed to merge are Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centres. These are the people you speak to on the radio, and who deploy Search and Rescue (SAR) resources to those in need. Some have already merged eg if you are off the North Coast of Scotland you will be in the Forth and Aberdeen sector. Provided they have sufficient resources, and adequate local knowledge - and it is a long way from Cape Wrath to Aberdeen - it does not matter where they are.

The UK is required to provide SAR to anyone in distress in the UK Search and Rescue Region, and has three organisations operating helicopters: HM Coastguard, The Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy. Only the Coastguard helicopters are intended to provide civilian SAR - the armed forces helicopters are intended to rescue their own crews and do civil SAR as a sideline, although in practice the vast majority of their flights are for civil SAR.

The Coastguard helicopters are already run by a private contractor, CHC Scotia, who have extensive experience operating offshore helicopter flights, both in an SAR role, and in support of the offshore oil and gas industry. They provide an excellent service using Sikorsky S-92 and three new AgustaWestland AW 139 aircraft.

The current armed forces helicopters are Sea Kings, which are coming to the end of their service life and will need to be replaced whoever runs the service. The contract to operate the replacements has been awarded to Soteria (a consortium of CHC and Sikorsky) who will use the Sikorsky S-92, a much faster and more capable aircraft than the aging Sea King.

From the point of view of a potential service user, I do not care who's logo is on the side of the helicopter, or which uniform the crew wear, provided the service is effective and free at the point of use, and I'm sure this contract will achieve that, and will release armed forces personnel for their core mission, which is defence.

You can argue about the costs of the contract, and whether it would be more cost effective to buy the helicopters (and spare aircraft) outright and employ the crews within the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, but bear in mind that the MCA is quite small - it has a turn over half that of the RNLI, which provides the majority of UK lifeboats and is funded only by charity.


Because military helicopter pilots have a great deal to do without helicopters.

You may not care who's logo is where, but I have no faith in the companies that Government hires in to do its work. I believe I already pointed out the savings/cost difference. Local knowledge? You place a lot on trust there.

The private sector has been creaming itself ever since the possibility of an "Austerity Budget" was announced, and this is just another meaty lump for them to gorge upon.


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oddone
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15 Dec 2010, 1:54 pm

Macbeth wrote:
Because military helicopter pilots have a great deal to do without helicopters.

Do you think that SAR is the only application the armed forces have for helicopters? The crews will be redeployed. Remember that SAR is a prize posting (William had a bit of an advantage here :D ) and the crews have previously served in other deployments, including combat deployments. Some may choose to leave the armed forces and work for Soteria - it's a specialised role - you can't just recruit winchmen in the local jobcentre.
Macbeth wrote:

You may not care who's logo is where, but I have no faith in the companies that Government hires in to do its work.

The existing Coastguard helicopters are run by CHC Scotia. Have you any experience of their work, or are you basing your views on failures by far better known government IT contractors? I've seen them at work and am sure we have nothing to fear.
Macbeth wrote:
I believe I already pointed out the savings/cost difference.

One thing to be aware of is that the MCGA is quite a small agency, and it may well prove move expensive to bring maintenance in house and provide spare airframes. CHC and Sikorsky on the other hand are already operating these aircraft throughout the world. Aren't the Coastguard surveillance and counter pollution aircraft leased as well?
Macbeth wrote:
Local knowledge? You place a lot on trust there.

We haven't experienced any problems in the Forth and Aberdeen Sector.
Macbeth wrote:
The private sector has been creaming itself ever since the possibility of an "Austerity Budget" was announced, and this is just another meaty lump for them to gorge upon.

The contract for the existing Coastguard helicopters was signed under the previous government, and work on this contact began under that government. Like it or not, the Sea Kings are coming to the end of their lives and the S-92 is a faster and more capable helicopter.

Are you basing your views on knowledge and experience of the UKs SAR provision, or just on public good, private bad ideology.



Macbeth
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16 Dec 2010, 4:03 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 61847.html

Might all be moot. Who knows what the f**k is going on any more?

Good experience in a single area does not provide knowledge of the greater whole. And I see no reason why the Agusta-Westland option (refitting at a substantially cheaper price) could not be pursued, rather than spending billions on a new outfit. Also, it seems a bit counter-productive to be buying any off the shelf military products at a time when we could probably do with creating more jobs rather than losing them. (IE the UK's own defence industry.) That is not to say that we should be following Labour's ridiculous lead by buying things we don't need just to create jobs. (Aircraft carriers that can't actually launch the ready-made yank planes we ordered.) but a functional modern replacement for the Sea King (or perhaps a nice new all-round transport helicopter even) isn't too much of a stretch. A 20 million pound refit of the Sea Kings would give us a long enough r+d window to do something like that.

Public is not always better than private, but that swings both ways, and if Dave really wants the private sector to create enough jobs to rehome all the people he's busy firing, it would serve him well to NOT ship all the private solutions abroad. I would accept a home-grown private company at a stretch, because at least then it would be helping our economy, rather than the Americans or the French.


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Macbeth
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16 Dec 2010, 6:03 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 61847.html

So the potential "contractor" has the heebie-jeebies, but they're STILL closing the coastguard stations.

Does anybody in that shit-heap at Westminster have a clue what they are doing?


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Jellybean
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16 Dec 2010, 8:05 am

Quote:
Does anybody in that sh**-heap at Westminster have a clue what they are doing?


No... no they don't...

that is all...


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16 Dec 2010, 4:44 pm

Governments should always ask the question, "make it or buy it," in regard to any program that it will provide to the public.

Some functions, like law-making, policing, diplomacy and the military, are generally incompatible with a, "buy it," solution. But other functions are much more amenable to public purchase of private services.

There is nothing in lifesaving and SAR that requires it to be performed by the military. The RNLI has been a functional, private component of the larger search and rescue framework for almost 200 years. Now, the operation of helicopters is a significantly more specialized activity than lifeboats, and generally requires paid, professional crews rather than the largely volunteer RNLI crews. But that can be sourced privately, and likely at significantly lower aggregate cost than through the armed forces.


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17 Dec 2010, 3:50 pm

"Buy it" means having government money to into the profits and bonuses of fatcats. Forget it. Government money has better purposes to serve than to fatten up fatcats further.



ascan
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17 Dec 2010, 3:58 pm

xenon13 wrote:
"Buy it" means having government money to into the profits and bonuses of fatcats. Forget it. Government money has better purposes to serve than to fatten up fatcats further.

Like fattening up bureaucrats?



xenon13
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18 Dec 2010, 5:31 pm

ascan wrote:
xenon13 wrote:
"Buy it" means having government money to into the profits and bonuses of fatcats. Forget it. Government money has better purposes to serve than to fatten up fatcats further.

Like fattening up bureaucrats?


What bureaucrat makes millions in bonuses?



oddone
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20 Dec 2010, 5:23 am

xenon13 wrote:
What bureaucrat makes millions in bonuses?

Not quite millions, but there are plenty of council 'Chief Executives' (ie Town Clerks) on £100k plus.

The issues of SAR helicopter provision and the reorganisation of HM Coastguard need to be separated. The MCGA's consultation document is here if anyone would like to respond.



Laz
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20 Dec 2010, 7:50 am

The council cheif in essex earns in excess of £240k and I think she's the only one in the south east region who isn't taking a 10% paycut

Pretty trivial compared to the money you can make from the mere fluctuations of a stock exchange in a day...or loose in the case of hedge funds.