Russian war against Ukraine

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I live in Moscow, Russia - and for the last year I completely changed my attitude towards Russians. Some time ago I thought Russia as more or less part of Europe and Russians in general are good despite dictatorial structure of the political power but this war that is now waged with no shame by Russia against the Ukraine opened my eyes. As it often appear - while you don't feel something by yourself you don't know what it really looks like, what it means.
SInce the very beginning of this conflict I backed most peaceful variants, that would decrease any chances of future military operations. I advocated this position in articles, in talks with family members, friends and office colleagues. I never attacked them, I just told them facts about Russian invasion in the Ukraine and that it should be stopped. As a result now almost all my family turned off me, they call me the traitor, colleagues in office repeated me many times that "Ukrainians should be slaughtered" (I'mm 50:50 Russian/Ukrainian), I now lost almost all so-called friends because they all back the war and are really happy when they read news like "27 Ukrainian civilians killed in Mariupol". They are happy of blood, of death, they definitely hate every nation around, every. And these examples are not single - these are almost all Russians even living abroad. Hard to believe it, I wish it was false but it is true.
So I feel I was blind for all these years - and now I can only say "I hate Russians" and my main wish is to leave Russia forever.

I think I can understand some of what you are going through, from what I experienced in the USA during the 2003 Iraq invasion. Everywhere American flags were flying, war propaganda accelerating, and for the next year or so I entered a deep depression.

In US it's much better - here I can be imprisoned for the post above if the police once know my real name. And it becomes worse every month. That's depressive...

Yeah, I was talking about feeling alienated from your country, with everyone around you seeming to embrace the "patriotism" of action that you might think is sort of dumb, and may have negative consequences down the road.

That's it. I wish I know how to deal with that.

Don't know whether you have read the following article in the Guardian newspaper which would have a ring of truth in it for you:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/j ... imir-putin

Good article, thanks. However I'll disagree with Browder in that Russia is "occupied" by mafia of ex-KGB members. When the vast majority of the nation supported and is still supporting this regime - it's everything but occupation. It's weird but even despite all of the lections were conducted with heavy violations of the lawm Putin's rule has the real support among people and he'll no doubt win even competitive elections here.

That's mentality - people here are violent slaves who only obey the slaver. That was in Tzar times and in Soviet times as well. Many famous Russian writers of the past like Pushkin and Dostoyevskiy also mentioned it. Despite the Western countries like in Europe or US, or Canada people here have no habit to struggle for their rights, to secure own freedom, to respect each other. Instead, they respect the slaver and ready to assault everyone who is against them - that is the majority here.

This year I'll try to move to USA and apply there to college for Political Science (my special interest, I was leader of small movement once and almost sure that will establish new in the US). But... even if I'll get the student visa and start learning I'll have to find some place to work for cash in the US to support myself. Illegally maybe... While waiting plenty of years for green card. That's all difficult - I'm not sure I'll cope with all these problems - now I'm already tired of all this s**t.

Yes, it's somehow ironic that Putin has so much support of his people, while presidents generally seen as more democratic have extremely low approval ratings (Obama, Cameron, Hollande).

No doubt it depends on nation, either people are willing king/dictator or not.

I've read interesting story about right this phenomenon - when in 1936 Italy conquered Ethiopia the Italians released more then half a million slaves there. And then Italian military governor of Ethiopia general Badoglio wrote some letters to Rome where he said with very much surprise that freed slaves come in crowds to Italian colonial offices and ask who now will feed them.

That is exactly what I see now in Russia People want one thing - to let someone else decide their fate and give them food. They say they don't need rights when they are fed up. However we all understand that those who choose food instead of liberty will lose both and they are losing right now. And I'm not magnifying as somebody may think, if I'll be Christian I'll swear on the Bible about all these facts.

I do understand why Russia wanted to have Crimea back ... it was their major naval base in the Black Sea. Yeltsin made a big mistake by giving it to the Ukraine.
What I don't understand is that Europe is getting so much involved in this. It's none of its business ...


What I also don't understand: people were protesting on the square when Yanukovych took off. They were heckling him all the time, but even after he was gone you could still hear people booing when the group with Klitschko appeared ... what was that all about?

^^I think Crimea was given to Ukraine earlier, in Soviet times. Yeltsin had nothing to do with it. I tried to make sense of the street fighting around the coup from articles and videos, but I don't know any Russian.

It was Khrushchev.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea

And in exchange Khrushchev ceded some Ukrainian territories of Kharkiv oblast to Russia (RSFSR then).

It was Khrushchev, but folks are seeing it backwards.
The Crimean Republic had long been a Russian stronghold. Main Navel Base, lots of troops.
It is very defendable, and has a land route to invade Ukraine.
Khrushchev joined the Crimean and Ukraine Republics into one District.
The Ukraine had gone with Germany in WWII, was taken in war by the USSR, and was not trusted.

The purpose was to block a new Ukraine government from being a tool of the west.

Ukraine was and is two countries, with a Russian majority in the east, and people in the west wanting to kill them.

Fort Crimea protected the Russian east, and gave them the majority vote.

Bandera Nazis kept trying to take over. That is who the US is supporting.

Almost all the economy is in the east, the west is farmers, and not good ones.

Novorussia was were the Soviets located Defense Industries. All the technology was in the east.

Ukraine Nationalists have long expressed themselves by killing Poles, Jews, Russians, joined the Germans, and continued fighting the Red Army after WWII.

While most of eastern Europe was just in the path of the Red Army, occupied, Ukraine was a full Nazi ally.

The war ended in Berlin, but continued for years in Ukraine.

Like Kalingrad, it was spoils of war, taken from the Nazis.

It was the German staging area for the Battle of Stalingrad, and the Battle of Kurst.

After the Germans fell back, Ukraine Nationalists fought on behind Soviet lines. They fought on after the war ended.

Khrushchev was a street fighter, he rose through the ranks. He joined the two Republics into one District, to drive a stake into the heart of Bandera Nationalists.

His intent was to stop what is now going on.

Elected President overthrown, Bandera Nationalists Coup, Torchlight parades by National Guard Units not under government control, killing Russians in the east, Odessa.

This time it is not Germany, it is the US backing killing Russians.

Over 5,000 of the majority vote are dead because they would not accept the coup.

The Bandera Nationalists started with cluster bombs, shelling, rockets, on civilian cities.

They lost the first round, and 60% of their weapons.

They used peace talks to move in more weapons, and started this by launching an assault, where three times they were driven back with loss of ground.

Now the people who were getting shelled are pushing them back.

Ukraine is now drafting all men up to 60, to be sent east to die. This will not last.

Most of their airpower was shot down, and in open ground they cannot defend.

They will be pushed back to Kiev.

Realpolitik, Nova Russia and Ukraine were given to Crimea. Russian majority government in Kiev.

This Bandera Nationalist revolt was expected.

The counter attack was planned by Khrushchev.

"The primary weapon of the Soviet Army is the bayonet." Khrushchev

As a person from a post-Soviet country, Lithuania, who had for ages suffered Russian occupation, I firmly support the starter of this thread, who said it all right- I guess, honest, conscious Russian people, just like German intellectuals in Nazi Germany before the WWII, should/or will be eventually forced to leave the country if they are willing to stay true to their values. Russia, make no doubt, right now is just like Germany in the 1930's, exactly the same rhetoric, the same tactic.

Putin is imagining himself as a Tzar, Tzarist symbolism has been revived, remarkably so- in accord with Stalinist attributes at the same time. Basically, since Stalin, the Soviet Union was far from Marxism and the ideals of "world revolution", but rather a new Russian Empire, embracing former parts of it, that left it in 1917. Thus, right now, we see a rise of straightforward fascism in Russia- militarism (people being brainwashed to hate Ukrainians, Georgians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Latvians, Poles, foreign workers, the US and anyone, who is seens as 'traitor' of 'Russian values'), culture being uses as tool for propaganda (so-called intellectuals signing pro-Government memorandums, while those opposing war are being publickly mocked and humiliated), persecutions of journalists, writers, bloggers, people, who oppose Putin's regime (numerous cases of people being killed by 'undetermined' criminals, while, most certainly, with allowance of the rulling regime), hate, both nationalistic and homophobic (the aforementioned portrayal by Government-controlled media of 'fascist' Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians and 'Nazi' Ukrainians, false claims, playing on the lowest of human emotions, based on 19th century nationalistic rhetoric, the so-called 'anti-gay' laws, violation of human rights and the authorities turning a blind eye on torture and killing of gay people). It's interesting to see, how Putin's propaganda is playing the same game, already played by Hitler- Russians are 'natural, 'normal', 'true' in opposition to 'gay, pervert, low, sick, weak, fat and unmanly' Europeans. Basically, Nazi propaganda used the same words...
What the author of this thread said is very sad, I mean, that Russians want to be slaves of a Tzar... As a Lithuanian, I have to admit, that my country is far from being European in its mentality as well, however, the memory of 50 years of Soviet occupation makes us less prone to fake nostalgia, whilst Russian people are misled by the regime, that makes them believe the Soviet times were 'a heaven' and the eventual demise of the USSR is a 'tragedy' and an 'insult' to Russians, basically, the same feelings Germans held after the WWI, at the times of the Weimar Republic... It's important, that people in Russia would understand, that the Soviet times was a prolonged torture OF THEM and not a moment of pride. People in Russia worship the victory in WWII, forgetting about the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact in 1939, that open the door for WWII and that Soviet Union took part in Hitler's war against Poland in 1939... They also forget about NKVD troops, who shot at their own soldiers in the backs, so taht they would not retreat... But what is sad for me as Lithuanian, is that there is still a lot of Soviet mentality in my country as well- people being politically blind, prone to populism, homophobic and narrow-minded. It's interesting, that, for instance, tense relations between Lithuania and Poland have always been worsened by Russia, as it's worst nightmare is our countries being strong allies and friendly. So, Lithuanian nationalists, despite their hate for Russia (true or false...), play Putin's game. Just like right-wing French, British, German, Dutch politicians- Putin is calling Ukrainians and Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians 'Nazis'- really? He is supported by fascist radicals in Hungary, France, Britain, Germany... They all adore his 'stron hand' politics. So, who's fascist?
By the way, in 1939 Germany laid claim to the Suddet region and to Klaipeda (Lithuanian port), based on the same criteria as Russia's claim to Crimea- 'it's 'our' land, 'our' people and so on'. In Klaipeda, a fake 'referendum' was organised as well- just like in Crimea. In times of treaties and diplomacy, such claims as 'our nation' is invalid whatsoever. Alright, maybe, let us start dividing all countries based on 'historic' evidence? It's absurd, Russia did sign treaties with Ukraine, regarding Crimea's status and Russia now occupied it. That's it, people. By the way, what about the fact, that ethnic Crimeans are not Russians, but Tartars, who were deported after WWII by Stalin. Some returned and now they are being persecuted again by occupants.
The West needs not to have any hope for Russia under Putin's regime- it's a fascist, militaristic state, imposing force upon its people and other nations. Before WWII people all over the world discussed, is Hitler 'that bad', maybe he is not, maybe he is just different, while they discussed, he was preparing for war. It is easy for us now to say- oh, Hitler was bad, that's for sure. Back then it was yet to be obvious to the blinded world, who believed that nothing bad can happen in the 20th century... We need to be cautious and not allow human rights to be violated...

Kasparov makes the same connection (he has left Russia). Here, from a recent interview: