China tries to tear up Hong Kong's constitution.

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"Freedom of speech, assembly and religion and a free press are all enshrined in Hong Kong?s mini-constitution,
the Basic Law, drafted to govern the city of 7.2 million upon its return to Chinese sovereignty in 1997 after
more than 150 years of British rule. Hong Kong residents are guaranteed those rights until 2047, and a legal
system inherited from the British helps keep it intact.

It is a system called ?one country, two systems? , lately, however, Chinese officials, including President Xi Jinping,
have been reminding Hong Kong that the first clause, ?One country,? is in Beijing?s eyes more important than the second."

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/30/world ... .html?_r=0

Now the mainland Chinese are trying to only allow Hong Kong voters to install one of a handful
of puppet cronies already selected by the mainland communists as thier new head of state.

Perfectly rational fears of bellicose elites in Beijing attempting to degrade this economic powerhouse
into their own human battery farm have resulted in widespread demonstrations throughout the city-state,
as well as made one good example of why those now threatened freedoms and rights are supposed to exist
in the first place.

Time for hong kong to join Taiwan i guess

for now it looks like they're going to repeat history again, with tiananmen.
they would be stupid to do so, with millions watching.

Ever since Hong Kong went back to China a few years ago, I was expecting for the day to come when the Chinese government reneged on their promise of the continuation of free government there.

The rest of the world will do absolutely nothing. The thing about Hong Kong is that the very existence of a system that allows both prosperity and anything resembling democracy is, in the long run, a threat to the rulers in Beijing - as long as it isn't happening anywhere in China, they can claim that Western-style government is incompatible with Chinese society and the Chinese must do things differently to preserve social harmony or whatever. But if Western-style freedoms and democracy work in a Chinese territory then that loses a lot credibility. I suspect the only reason they haven't cracked down a lot sooner and harder on freedoms in HK isn't treaties and so on, but that they know it will make Taiwan a lot less keen on a "one country, two systems" reunification. Beijing would no doubt prefer not to be accused of not honoring its promises, and no doubt prefers a prosperous HK, and would prefer not to have another Tiananment with the whole world watching, but it surely would, if it came to that, prefer to turn HK into a wasteland rather than see its grip on power threatened.
Thus, HKers who quit the place before it was handed back to China it seems had the right idea, unfortunately.

What you're saying is it would be sensible not to count on your help with this one?


So the rest of the world is a threat to the rulers in Beijing?


Nobody would be stupid enough to believe that.


Like they are now, like they are in the richest and most powerful nations around as well?


Would you be able to tell me precisely what makes these rulers in Beijing so qualified and respected that not a single command, no matter how stupid can ever be formally questioned?
On what basis the people in Hong Kong should never again have their rules debated in their own country by their own representatives?
For precisely what good, what benefit, under what convention?

It is unbelievable that an economic power like China can learn so much from advanced manufacturing, economics, engineering and science and yet so little from good governance.



Beijing is not a person, it is a city.
Then who are these people in Beijing who would rather ''turn it into a wasteland'' than allow free elections there?

And if it really is as you say, then a business owner would have an especially hard time reinvesting in a nation where the people cannot even choose their own leaders.


There there, no need to admit defeat so soon, I'm sure the enlightened leaders in Beijing will eventually get the message.

And what are YOU going to do that might actually make a difference?




What, exactly, makes you think I support the leadership in Beijing? HKers are fighting the good fight, but it's a hopeless fight.



It's hard to learn when you don't want to learn in the first place, and it doesn't help if your culture regards the rest of the world as essentially barbarians.



I thought it was obvious I meant the Communist Party leadership - i.e. the only people actually in a position to make these decisions.



Business owners have no problem reinvesting in China, which has essentially never had a democracy. What you are saying is demonstrably false. Businesses have been very keen on the notion that capitalism and trader will somehow automatically democratize China, despite the complete lack of evidence for this theory, because it provides moral cover for their continuing investment.

I will ask the questions if you don't mind.


You certainly haven't said anything supportive of the protesters.


A pathetic attitude like that is obviously supportive of the communists in Beijing.


Now you accuse the mainland communists of being genocidal maniacs?


Really? And how many business owners do you know?


China is a corrupt country with a corrupt business culture.
Protected local markets,
Bribery extortion from government officials to get licences and approvals, or extremely long waits.
Unrealistic procedural hurdles for foreign businesses to give local competitors an illegal advantage.
Potentially state sponsored intellectual property theft.
Counterfeiting of foreign goods.
Cybercrime.
Open discrimination against foreign companies.
Foreign executives face the possibility of huge fines or criminal prosecution for activities they never condoned or even knew about.
Inflation and wage pressures.
Lack of talented skilled people.
The worst pollution in the world.
Systemic and prolific abuses of human rights.
Suicide prevention netting on office blocks and requiring potential employees to sign no-suicide pledges.
There's more things than this, but you get the idea.

Removing democracy from Hong Kong will result in the eventual and inevitable corruption of the business environment there, the corruption of the legal system and presumably the corruption of the government administration as well.

Without elections, there is simply no way to stop widespread high level corruption.

^^^
Many of the west's business leaders are decidedly antidemocratic to begin with, and prefer to work with authoritarian governments like China's. Proof of that lies in the historic record, such as when big business had convinced the US government to intercede against democratically elected governments in Latin America, in order to support right wing replacement regimes more friendly to American business, such with the overthrow of the Arbenz government in Guatemala.

Translation: You won't do a thing.



I said they're fighting the good fight.



[sarcasm]Yes, because grandstanding on an internet forum is obviously going to bring a powerful, totalitarian regime to its knees.[/sarcasm] I don't know if HK'ers have any illusions of Western support, but vacuous "support" is worse than nothing, because it helps create a false sense of security.



I certainly don't believe them to be maniacs (they are not Mao, who was a genocidal maniac), and in any case I think it was clear that I think they would only destroy HK as an absolute last resort.



Given how many businesses invest and re-invest in China, clearly there is no shortage of businesses that have no hesitation to do so.



So is half the world.



This is not true.



It's the Chinese, not foreign investors, who die as a result.



The West has never cared much about that, all the way to full-blown genocide. After all, France was allied with the genocidal regime in Rwanda, the US with the genocidal regime in Guatemala, and the US is utterly indifferent to the depravity of the cartels right across the border, which are largely funded by American consumers and armed by American arms dealers.



No disagreement there.



You're remarkably optimistic about the effect of elections.

Its getting a bit whiffy in here. What is that smell?
Someone must be having troll for dinner.

Name-calling is the usual tactic of those who have run out of arguments.

Don't want to burst your bubble, but I would like to say that the "western" media, indeed most of the news we get on this, is horribly one sided.
How do I know? I have family back there and I lived there.

Firstly, we actually had absolutely no democracy what-so-ever under the Brits. Sure, we can't vote for the chief executive (close to a mayor I guess?) idiot, but so f*****g what? We are actually allowed to do everything but vote for one guy. District administration and s**t work fine. I can't see why suddenly it will become sunshine and bunnies because we can vote for a guy.

Secondly, the media (shamefully, BBC as well, but they are increasingly crap) failed to report on the true numbers of the "pro-democracy" groups. They actually only constitute to about 14% of Hong Kong. Most of us either don't give a s**t or, like me, stand on the edges. To submit to the demands of 14% would be ironically undemocratic, not like the "west" gives a s**t considering some governments' track records.

Thirdly, the media had grossly under-reported unlawful actions of some (not all) of the protesters. Even before this f**k-up, the same bunch of as*holes were doing stupid things such as breaking into military garrisons, assaulting government officials (though in very half-arsed ways) etc, and then shouting "freedom of expression" when told off. Just because you are free to speak doesn't mean you get to shout at random people around the streets, plus that kind of BS would have gotten them arrested if the Brits were still around. All they get was a verbal warning. Then a certain nation was telling our police how to do our job, clearly forgetting that they frequently shoot up unarmed people of a specific ethnic group.

The the most ANNOYING thing about this is how the "west" turned the whole thing into a simple "fight for democracy". The problem is much deeper. We are suffering from increasingly harsh inequality, unemployment, ludicrous property prices etc (not unlike many developed nations, really). We want some self determination, to try to fix this s**t. Then they whitewashed it into a single slogan: "democracy". No mention on all the problems we are really having. Go and take your shameless self-promotion elsewhere!

I can go on and on. I have no love for CCP, but this Cold War-era Commie-bashing is so tiring and predictable. The way I see it, it's another attempt for the "west" to distract people from the monumental fuck-ups they had caused around the world.

Funny how truly successful democracies don't go around and bully/harrass/poke other nations...

Hong Kong has a Chinese in its armor.

ruveyn

ruveyn, can you clarify?

Honestly, I would like to see more democracy in HK, but not exactly too fussed if things stay the same for a bit longer. After all, CCP has to deal with the fact that a lot of Mainlanders are discontent: at the fact that despite of being increasingly insignificant as a city, HK still gets special treatment.

Heck, frankly, I think the whole "1 country, 2 systems" is total bullocks, especially when the systems are so far apart! We are not talking about different variations of democracy here. One is some quasi-totalitarian thingy, while the other (HK) is quasi-democracy thing. They don't really mix...

An optimist can argue that CCP should use HK as a prototype for gradually turning nation towards democracy (really the best system there is), but combination of infighting and meddling by "outsiders" make that difficult...

In any rate, this is all extremely complicated, and cannot be boiled down into a single slogan...