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androbot01
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02 Sep 2016, 6:53 am

So, it seems that scientists are discovering a lot about the brain and its function. Specifically with regard to brain chemistry and new psychiatric medications. I take one such, Seroquel, which helps to clear up my paranoia symptoms amongst others.

This link and quote are an example of such research:
BBC: Brain scans used to examine psychiatric disorders

Quote:
The mutation results in disruption of a gene called DISC1, which is associated with recurrent major depression, schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.
Experts found those with the mutation had changes in the structure of their brains, changes which were ultimately linked with the severity of their symptoms of mental ill-health.
The study also showed carriers of the mutation had lower levels of the chemical glutamate in parts of their brain.
Previous studies have pointed to a strong link between reduced glutamate levels and schizophrenia.


I have also found that Gabapentin improves my fine motor coordination and executive function.

It is these experiences that lead me to ask if character is a concept that will be left in the past. I see a future where everyone is scanned and modified to perform at their utmost. Productivity seems to be the mantra of these times.

I have often been criticized for being a slob and leaving things to the last minute. But my medications have made me more organized and functional. So was this behaviour a poor showing of character on my part or was it out of my control?

Here's another article:
Guardian: Can a brain scan uncover your morals?
Quote:
Brain images are becoming standard evidence in some of the country’s most controversial and disturbing death penalty cases. In March, Barack Obama’s bioethics commission released a report stating that neuroscience is used in about a quarter of capital cases, and that percentage is rising quickly.

Lawyers use scans in a few principal ways. Sometimes it’s to explain a psychiatrist’s diagnosis to help a plea of insanity, or to help prove intellectual disability. Most often they are used to ask juries for mercy during the sentencing phase of the grimmest trials.

Since the inner workings of a criminal’s mind are central to a case, any tool that might shed light on the 3-lb organ is worth considering. And brain scans have diagnostic credibility: they are fundamental in clinical settings for spotting tumors, cancer or traumatic injuries. They have been used to study aspects of behavior, such as decision-making, depression and impulse control. But in death penalty cases, the images are taken out of that medical or experimental context, and used to clarify nuances of criminal actions.
...
Meanwhile, the federal government is pumping millions of dollars into fMRI research on mental diagnoses, partly in anticipation of the judicial system benefitting from it.

Everyone who has a stake in the science is hoping the scans will some day provide an unbiased truth. But there is a systematic problem because the law needs finality, while science relies on continued research. And for now, there is no way to see intention in the scans – there is no record of a crime, of innocence, of morality, of honesty. Behavioral brain scans are as objective as their interpreters.


If brain scans are being used to determine culpability in the punishment phase then the legal system has already accepted that character is effected by biology. I think this is the beginning of a steep slope.



shlaifu
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02 Sep 2016, 2:33 pm

Haha. I think that's a question for a philosopher to answer. - is it me, or is what I call "me" just the sum of my chemistry.

But, with capitalism around, the question of wether at some point we will be drugged to perform our best has already be answered.
Even if you have reason to be depressed, we need you to be happy to perform for us- - the perversion is that we have to pay for it!
But of course, being able to participate at our performance maximum is reward itself-


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yelekam
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02 Sep 2016, 9:28 pm

Well I would hope that the concept of character does end up being left in the past. Character is an important aspect of people and understanding is important to understanding people. The consideration of the mind and even brain is not something which natural science is wholly suitable to covering. While it does provide some insights, the matter of the mind cannot be wholly investigated under its theoretical and methodological structure. An interdisciplinary approach is important to gaining an accurate understanding of the brain.

Attempting to manage people through mere medication is a recipe for failure. The active mind and the environment are as much serious factors as biology is (and even more so if some aspects). Approaches which combine intellectual development, positive environment, with measured physical intervention are inclined to be more successful. Relying on a wholly physical approach would likely end up produce intellect undeveloped people, who are more are less capable of handling their environment, who are increasingly dependent on meds, and liable a great variety of negative side effects.



androbot01
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03 Sep 2016, 4:22 am

shlaifu wrote:
But, with capitalism around, the question of wether at some point we will be drugged to perform our best has already be answered.
Even if you have reason to be depressed, we need you to be happy to perform for us- - the perversion is that we have to pay for it!
But of course, being able to participate at our performance maximum is reward itself-

The man-made environment is depressing, and it's ironic that it's easier to change the person than to change the machine. We are evolving to our technology.
yelekam wrote:
The consideration of the mind and even brain is not something which natural science is wholly suitable to covering. While it does provide some insights, the matter of the mind cannot be wholly investigated under its theoretical and methodological structure. An interdisciplinary approach is important to gaining an accurate understanding of the brain.

I think science is becoming more suitable to providing insights into "the matter of the mind" as each new discovery is made. We're starting to figure out our biochemistry and may soon forget about morality as illness replaces it as the reason for bad behaviour.

yelekam wrote:
Attempting to manage people through mere medication is a recipe for failure. The active mind and the environment are as much serious factors as biology is (and even more so if some aspects). Approaches which combine intellectual development, positive environment, with measured physical intervention are inclined to be more successful. Relying on a wholly physical approach would likely end up produce intellect undeveloped people, who are more are less capable of handling their environment, who are increasingly dependent on meds, and liable a great variety of negative side effects.

Oh for sure. Intellectual development, environment and support remain crucial to any human. I'm not sure why this precludes the additional use of medication. I think all should work in combination.



friedmacguffins
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03 Sep 2016, 10:06 am

While I am philosophically in favor of predestination, people can still feel that they exercised an effect on their own chemistry, as a matter of free will. You could choose to research, and to take the pills.

imho, cognition and material are probably two separate orders of information, which need not be pitted against eachother.



androbot01
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03 Sep 2016, 10:27 am

friedmacguffins wrote:
imho, cognition and material are probably two separate orders of information, which need not be pitted against eachother.

I have no idea what this ^ means.



shlaifu
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05 Sep 2016, 7:02 pm

It means that cognition is a higher level of abstraction, while science deals with the lower level, the neuronal substrate.

Like a painting. You can look at several distinct layers: the subject, the brushstrokes and finally the chemical composition of the paint, the pigments and binder and such. Science is looking at the pigments, psychology at the subject and its interpretation.
Yet, the magic is in the brushstrokes.


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androbot01
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06 Sep 2016, 1:36 am

That's a lovely description, especially the brushstrokes (God's?)
Appreciation for the complexity of human design does not preclude a chemical makeup, though. Also, I don't see all that much difference between animal behaviour and human behavior (the main difference being language skills;) different levels of development, I guess.
Where you see magic, I see biology.



shlaifu
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06 Sep 2016, 9:58 am

androbot01 wrote:
That's a lovely description, especially the brushstrokes (God's?)
Appreciation for the complexity of human design does not preclude a chemical makeup, though. Also, I don't see all that much difference between animal behaviour and human behavior (the main difference being language skills;) different levels of development, I guess.
Where you see magic, I see biology.


I'm using the word magic figuratively here, because we haven't figured out what's going on in this step- how memory and personality and thinking is actually stored within synapses. we figured out that eating suger gives a spike in dopamine, on the neurological level. and then the person is happy, on the psychological level. the step inbetween gives us trouble.
and hence, we can't really tell yet the difference between happiness based on eating sugar and having a dopamine spike, anti-depressant based happiness and having just an optimistic disposition. it's in the connections, somewhere...


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