latest study suggests once again that democracy is fragile

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poll gauging support for democratic institutions versus authoritarian systems
I believe it is essential to live in a democracy! :) 42%  42%  [ 11 ]
I could live under an authoritarian ruler/tyrant/oligarchy. :| 8%  8%  [ 2 ]
I believe our present political system is legitimate. :) 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
I believe our present political system is illegitimate :x 31%  31%  [ 8 ]
ice cream, PLEASE! :o 15%  15%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 26

auntblabby
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30 Nov 2016, 2:55 am

(clicky)liberal democracy on decline around the world
[excerpt] Yascha Mounk is used to being the most pessimistic person in the room. Mr. Mounk, a lecturer in government at Harvard, has spent the past few years challenging one of the bedrock assumptions of Western politics: that once a country becomes a liberal democracy, it will stay that way. His research suggests something quite different: that liberal democracies around the world may be at serious risk of decline.
Mr. Mounk and Mr. Foa developed a three-factor formula to determine the fragility of a given nation's democratic institutions. Mr. Mounk thinks of it as an early-warning system, and it works something like a medical test: a way to detect that a democracy is ill before it develops full-blown symptoms.
The first factor was public support: How important do citizens think it is for their country to remain democratic? The second was public openness to nondemocratic forms of government, such as military rule. And the third factor was whether “antisystem parties and movements” — political parties and other major players whose core message is that the current system is illegitimate — were gaining support. If support for democracy was falling while the other two measures were rising, the researchers marked that country “deconsolidating.” And they found that democratic deconsolidation was the political equivalent of a low-grade fever that arrives the day before a full-blown case of the flu.

check out the link for more specifics of which countries are deconsolidating. America is only the latest example, after Venezuela and Poland.

attached poll is for edumacational purposes only :study:

"...Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." - John Adams



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30 Nov 2016, 3:29 am

Democracy and "Liberal Democracy" are two very different things. One is true Democracy the other is Liberal oligarchy. In a so-called Liberal Democracy it doesn't matter how you vote, because in reality the whims of the ruling political oligarchy are pursued no matter the result.


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Last edited by thewheel on 30 Nov 2016, 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

auntblabby
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30 Nov 2016, 4:16 am

sorta like "good cop" and "bad cop" - or like what anesthetists like to say to their patients- "come along quietly..."



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30 Nov 2016, 4:04 pm

Just for the record. The United States of America is a Republic, not a Democracy. We have democratic procedures for electing our representatives in congress and for choosing electors to elect the the President and Vice President. Our Constitution requires that all States have a republican form of government which means government under law and a democratic means of choosing governing officials in the several states. Again, each state is required to be a republic.

That means that the government operates under Law and not under the decision of a momentary majority. Direct Democracy may work for small towns but it does not work for large sovereign units.


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30 Nov 2016, 6:37 pm

BaalChatzaf wrote:
Just for the record. The United States of America is a Republic, not a Democracy. We have democratic procedures for electing our representatives in congress and for choosing electors to elect the the President and Vice President. Our Constitution requires that all States have a republican form of government which means government under law and a democratic means of choosing governing officials in the several states. Again, each state is required to be a republic.

That means that the government operates under Law and not under the decision of a momentary majority. Direct Democracy may work for small towns but it does not work for large sovereign units.

Please don't play on words; he obviously meant representative democracy, which what USA is, or rather a "democratic republic". Also, a constitution is not a full proof system against authoritarian rule, as it can be interpreted in different ways and the legal interpretation are decided by judges who are appointed by the government.
There is a ancient greek scholar (Don't remember his name) that said: "Monarchies evolve in tyranny, republics in oligarchy and democracies in anarchy. "

Quote:

Support for autocratic alternatives is rising, too. Drawing on data from the European and World Values Surveys, the researchers found that the share of Americans who say that army rule would be a “good” or “very good” thing had risen to 1 in 6 in 2014, compared with 1 in 16 in 1995.

That trend is particularly strong among young people. For instance, in a previously published paper, the researchers calculated that 43 percent of older Americans believed it was illegitimate for the military to take over if the government were incompetent or failing to do its job, but only 19 percent of millennials agreed. The same generational divide showed up in Europe, where 53 percent of older people thought a military takeover would be illegitimate, while only 36 percent of millennials agreed.

That is the most worrying part of the study, as military regimes are the worsts. :pale:

Wish I was born another year that 1981, seem like things will get very, very bad. :(


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30 Nov 2016, 7:17 pm

Tollorin wrote:
BaalChatzaf wrote:
Just for the record. The United States of America is a Republic, not a Democracy. We have democratic procedures for electing our representatives in congress and for choosing electors to elect the the President and Vice President. Our Constitution requires that all States have a republican form of government which means government under law and a democratic means of choosing governing officials in the several states. Again, each state is required to be a republic.

That means that the government operates under Law and not under the decision of a momentary majority. Direct Democracy may work for small towns but it does not work for large sovereign units.

Please don't play on words; he obviously meant representative democracy, which what USA is, or rather a "democratic republic". Also, a constitution is not a full proof system against authoritarian rule, as it can be interpreted in different ways and the legal interpretation are decided by judges who are appointed by the government.
There is a ancient greek scholar (Don't remember his name) that said: "Monarchies evolve in tyranny, republics in oligarchy and democracies in anarchy. "

Quote:

Support for autocratic alternatives is rising, too. Drawing on data from the European and World Values Surveys, the researchers found that the share of Americans who say that army rule would be a “good” or “very good” thing had risen to 1 in 6 in 2014, compared with 1 in 16 in 1995.

That trend is particularly strong among young people. For instance, in a previously published paper, the researchers calculated that 43 percent of older Americans believed it was illegitimate for the military to take over if the government were incompetent or failing to do its job, but only 19 percent of millennials agreed. The same generational divide showed up in Europe, where 53 percent of older people thought a military takeover would be illegitimate, while only 36 percent of millennials agreed.

That is the most worrying part of the study, as military regimes are the worsts. :pale:

Wish I was born another year that 1981, seem like things will get very, very bad. :(


Was that Plato by chance?


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auntblabby
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30 Nov 2016, 7:57 pm

IMHO amuurica long has had an authoritarian streak, thousands of miles wide at times.



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30 Nov 2016, 8:25 pm

auntblabby wrote:
IMHO amuurica long has had an authoritarian streak, thousands of miles wide at times.


Back in my college days, I had taken a historiography class, in which I had read a biographical source on Huey Long, who, despite his reputation today as being a charmingly corrupt good ol' boy, was very much feared as a possible populist/authoritarian threat to the Republic in his own day. His support in Louisiana was perhaps summed up in the words of a renowned professor in that state, who had said, "If I had to choose between Huey or freedom, I'd take Huey," adding, "freedom isn't that important, anyway."


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auntblabby
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30 Nov 2016, 8:38 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
IMHO amuurica long has had an authoritarian streak, thousands of miles wide at times.


Back in my college days, I had taken a historiography class, in which I had read a biographical source on Huey Long, who, despite his reputation today as being a charmingly corrupt good ol' boy, was very much feared as a possible populist/authoritarian threat to the Republic in his own day. His support in Louisiana was perhaps summed up in the words of a renowned professor in that state, who had said, "If I had to choose between Huey or freedom, I'd take Huey," adding, "freedom isn't that important, anyway."

that is a telling commentary on the American character. alexis de Tocqueville observed, that as long as most americans had money they didn't seem to care about too much else.



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30 Nov 2016, 9:42 pm

We are told that America was created as a Republic, to avoid the evil of Democracy.

We are taught that we need to elect "learned people" to make the wise decisions for us, rather than voting on every issue.



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30 Nov 2016, 10:47 pm

the problem is that, all too often, the "learned people" make decisions that benefit only them and theirs. freedom and ignorance cannot co-exist, this is really biting us in the @$$ right now.



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30 Nov 2016, 11:27 pm

auntblabby wrote:
the problem is that, all too often, the "learned people" make decisions that benefit only them and theirs. freedom and ignorance cannot co-exist, this is really biting us in the @$$ right now.


That's why the people who will be the death of the American experiment in free government are the likes of Sarah Palin, George W Bush, and yes, President elect Trump, with their taking pride in not knowing anything, and their damning of the intellectual elite, while praising the intellectually mediocre.


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30 Nov 2016, 11:41 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
the problem is that, all too often, the "learned people" make decisions that benefit only them and theirs. freedom and ignorance cannot co-exist, this is really biting us in the @$$ right now.


That's why the people who will be the death of the American experiment in free government are the likes of Sarah Palin, George W Bush, and yes, President elect Trump, with their taking pride in not knowing anything, and their damning of the intellectual elite, while praising the intellectually mediocre.

the late entertainer steve allen [very intelligent man] coined a term for pride in ignorance- "dumbth."



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01 Dec 2016, 2:21 am

auntblabby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
the problem is that, all too often, the "learned people" make decisions that benefit only them and theirs. freedom and ignorance cannot co-exist, this is really biting us in the @$$ right now.


That's why the people who will be the death of the American experiment in free government are the likes of Sarah Palin, George W Bush, and yes, President elect Trump, with their taking pride in not knowing anything, and their damning of the intellectual elite, while praising the intellectually mediocre.

the late entertainer steve allen [very intelligent man] coined a term for pride in ignorance- "dumbth."


I had not heard the word dumbth before, but I will try to use it from now on.


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01 Dec 2016, 4:18 am

I never paid much attention to leftists liberalism and the DNC before the election started. But what I've come away with is, there seems to be a lot of control agenda involved. Like supposed liberty through conditioning and controlling society on what's supposed to be the only allowable way to think and speak. And I think as far as fragility goes, the DNC is on the edge of shattering into oblivion. I believe a lot of people are unable to see so called democracy for what it really is, which actually isn't democracy, but closer to what it espouses to be against.



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01 Dec 2016, 4:30 am

EzraS wrote:
I never paid much attention to leftists liberalism and the DNC before the election started. But what I've come away with is, there seems to be a lot of control agenda involved. Like supposed liberty through conditioning and controlling society on what's supposed to be the only allowable way to think and speak. And I think as far as fragility goes, the DNC is on the edge of shattering into oblivion. I believe a lot of people are unable to see so called democracy for what it really is, which actually isn't democracy, but closer to what it espouses to be against.

and you are saying the right wing never does this?