United Methodist Church To Debate About LGBT Clergy

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23 Feb 2019, 1:34 pm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2019/02/22/will-nations-third-largest-church-split-up-over-lgbt-debate-leaders-try-reach-an-answer/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b02765676abf

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Prometheus18
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23 Feb 2019, 2:28 pm

If the church permits LGBT clergy, it will be its final death knell in regards to the possibility for new converts and retaining current churchgoers. People do not go to church for the sake of political posturing, but for the sake of religion as taught in the Bible.

karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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23 Feb 2019, 4:48 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:

Funny, I thought people went to church for acceptance and community--which is what gay people are asking for, some acceptance and a place in the church community. Would Jesus turn them away from his church? Somehow I think he would want us to accept people (didn't he say something about not judging others?), and I don't think it would be a political posture on his part. More like what the spirit of Christianity is supposed to be about--loving thy neighbour.

Prometheus18
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23 Feb 2019, 5:11 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

Prometheus18 wrote:

Yes, Jesus would most definitely have been considered a "homophobe" by today's standards - everybody in the Palestine of the Tiberian era would have been. I can't see him accepting such a person into his church. He criticised those who were too quick to judge, but he also expected perfection from his followers and, in particular, the apostles (all straight and male) who prefigured the later clergy.

I think the love part is a fallacy. Personally, I'm an agnostic and have nothing against gays per se, but to say that because Christians were instructed to love their neighbour they must love everything about him is, I think, fallacious. After all, some people are murderers and we're not expected to love them.

karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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23 Feb 2019, 5:57 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

Prometheus18 wrote:

Ah, I see. So it's "Judge not lest ye be judged--except for those gross gays, you can judge the f**k out of them." I can totally see Jesus saying that, you're right. :lol:

Also, one of his followers that he "expected perfection from" was a prostitute.

EzraS
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24 Feb 2019, 3:47 am

The keyword is was. How can someone currently practicing in sin become a member of the clergy? The point of being a Christian and going to church is that person puts God first in all things. Often that means a great deal of personal sacrifice. One can not serve both God and the flesh.

I believe Matthew 7:1-5 is basically about church brothers not nitpicking each other. "And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?".

Quote:

Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. Matthew 7:1-5 NKJV

Wolfram87
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24 Feb 2019, 4:59 am

Prometheus18 wrote:

the apostles (all straight and male)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disciple_whom_Jesus_loved

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EzraS
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24 Feb 2019, 5:46 am

I would say since the bible seems to make it clear that homosexuality is a sin, and also makes it clear that Jesus was without sin, then Jesus didn't have homosexual feelings towards John.

Wolfram87
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24 Feb 2019, 6:01 am

From what I recall reading about old biblical translations, homosexuality is condemned using the same intensity of language as the passages about not eating shellfish, wearing mixed fabrics and cutting your hair certain ways. If those bits can be ignored without a second thought, why is the one about homosexuality special?

Also, TDWJL seems to be widely regarded as not being John.

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EzraS
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24 Feb 2019, 6:10 am

Wolfram87 wrote:

As part of the mitzvah along with the other things you mentioned, it could possibly be discounted under the new covenant. That is unless it's specified as a sin in the new testament.

Whoever it was, Jesus was without sin and homosexuality was a sin at the time Jesus was alive because he was a Jew and under the law of the mitzvah.

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24 Feb 2019, 3:22 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:

And YTF can't a LGBT clergy member preach religion as taught in the bible?

Newsflash:

They already do. There are many gay priests. It's part of why they're priests.. taught to be self hating and to seek some sort of religious redemption, so they join the priesthood convinced that if they do The Lord's good work they'll be forgiven for their "sin," of being born the way they are. They just don't tell you about who they're sexually attracted to because it's irrelevant And, quite frankly, none of your business.

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24 Feb 2019, 3:23 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

Prometheus18 wrote:

Fake news. Jesus hung around with 12 dudes drinking wine. Dude was gay af.

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24 Feb 2019, 3:24 pm

EzraS wrote:

I would say since the bible seems to make it clear that homosexuality is a sin, and also makes it clear that Jesus was without sin, then Jesus didn't have homosexual feelings towards John.

Except there is literally Zero text in the bible that says homosexuality is a sin. Besides that, you're spot on.

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EzraS
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24 Feb 2019, 6:34 pm

goldfish21 wrote:

EzraS wrote:

I would say since the bible seems to make it clear that homosexuality is a sin, and also makes it clear that Jesus was without sin, then Jesus didn't have homosexual feelings towards John.

Except there is literally Zero text in the bible that says homosexuality is a sin. Besides that, you're spot on.

Not quite zero:

"22 Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. - Leviticus 18:22 NIV"

"13 If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. - Leviticus 20:13 NIV"

"10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. - 1 Timothy 1:10-11 NIV"

"9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV"

AnneOleson
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24 Feb 2019, 9:05 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

Prometheus18 wrote:

The Anglican Church of Canada has homosexual priests and I think bishops. Also, we ARE expected to love sinners, including murderers. It’s not to mean that we love, or tolerate the sins people do.

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