James Watson... do I need to say more?
Here is the article posted in CNN:
art.watson.jpg
James Watson won the 1962 Nobel prize for discovering the structure of DNA.
Watson, who won the 1962 Nobel prize for his part in discovering the structure of DNA, provoked a storm of criticism after his comments were published in the Sunday Times.
The eminent biologist told the British newspaper he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours -- whereas all the testing says not really."
Watson, 79, had been due to give a lecture at London's Science Museum on Friday but the museum canceled his appearance, saying his comments had "gone beyond the point of acceptable debate".
The American professor's words have been roundly condemned as "racist," with fellow scientists dismissing his claims as "genetic nonsense".
"He should recognize that statements of this sort have racist functions and are to be deeply, deeply regretted," said Professor Steven Rose of the British Open University.
Watson is credited with discovering the double helix along with Maurice Wilkins and Francis Crick in 1962.
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In the newspaper interview, he said there was no reason to think that races which had grown up in separate geographical locations should have evolved identically. He went on to say that although he hoped everyone was equal, "people who have to deal with black employees find this not true".
The British government's skills minister, David Lammy, who is black, called the comments "deeply offensive" and said Watson would only succeed in providing oxygen for extremist political groups.
"It is a shame that a man with a record of scientific distinction should see his work overshadowed by his own irrational prejudices," Lammy told CNN.
Watson is not the first scientist to show sympathy for the theory of a racial basis for intellectual difference. In March of last year Dr. Frank Ellis from Leeds University provoked anger in Britain after he admitted he found evidence that racial groups perform differently "extremely convincing."
Critical thinking exercise: Did James Watson say that black people aren't as smart as white people? Think carefully about the question. Here's his quote: "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours -- whereas all the testing says not really." Did he says that black people aren't as smart as white people, OR, did he say that "all the testing says not really"? As a scientist, he's referring to test results, not to his personal opinion. Whichever test results he's indicating here, he's only to blame if the test results he's referring to don't show what he claims they show.
The question is: Is he reporting accurately on the results of these tests? A follow-up question would be: Does believing a test result make him a racist? As a scientist, wouldn't his natural inclination be to believe test results? Again, I don't know to which tests he's referring. This is simply an exercise in logic.
Hate is necessary for racism to exist in a person. He shows no ill will, just an opinion based on data. Whether that opinion is correct or misguided is a question into which hate does not enter. In other words, if he's wrong, then fine. That doesn't make him a racist, just mistaken.
There's going to be someone in this thread who doesn't understand the difference between hate and inaccuracy, and that's why I've explained it ahead of time -- even though that person will probably come along and call me a racist too.
Hypothetically, what if blacks weren't -- on average -- as smart as whites? What would be the big deal about that? And what if white men really can't jump, as the basketball movie of the same title supposes? Why would such be at all political? "Smarter" does not mean "better". Again, hate is the "active ingredient" in racism. If you don't have hate, you're not a racist. You may be mistaken in some of your beliefs about race, but being mistaken doesn't make you bad, just temporarily ignorant. We all have ignorance of something.
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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
Last edited by Ragtime on 18 Oct 2007, 10:46 am, edited 10 times in total.
If you were to find the average IQ's of different nations, there is a noticeable difference. What Dr Watson has missed is that IQ tests are dependent on culture, you could also write a test that black people do better on than white people. He is a muppet and a racist, but I dont think he should have been censured like that.
The issue of intelligence related to race is an eternally thorny one, as it's so emotive, especially if things are said offhand and unscientifically.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the pair of people credited with discovering the double helix more or less plagiarize it off a peer?
The whole article was posted for you to read, Ragtime, and the above comment has nothing to do with science or test results. He is commenting on a subjective, cultural bias against Blacks.
The whole article was posted for you to read, Ragtime
I had read that whole article yesterday.
So, you don't dispute his entitlement to cite testing results. Good. So far, you support free speech.
Now, regarding what you do take issue with -- his subjective comment -- are you saying he's not entitled to his own subjective opinion? Don't we all have subjective opinions?
And he sounds like he's referring to employers he knows of -- not just casting an aspersion for the fun of it. Clearly, he sounds like he has no interest in denigration, he's simply making a referrence to "testing" that apparently has been undertaken. Now, if this "testing" turns out to be a lie he decided to make up for the interview, then he deserves to be never trusted again. That's the cool thing about facts: you can research them.
But notice, as another poster mentioned, how emotionally explosive even TALKING about this issue is. So much so, that most people either refuse to discuss it entirely, or begin and end their argument with blanket "this is the way it is!" statements.
I do know that the man in my avatar was a genius of the highest caliber. Again, that's a subjective conclusion. Doesn't make it wrong. His music has mesmerized me since I was three years old, and still does.
I don't think "intelligence" data is conclusive anyway. We simply don't know enough about all the different kinds of intelligence, as relates to all the parts of the mind. Take Aspies, for instance. They are said to have "spikey profiles" -- greatly gifted in one mental area, horribly deficient in another, and back and forth through other areas. Look at Kim Peek. Is he a genius, or ret*d? Answer: Both. That shatters our simple little catagories! That's just the way it goes. Average people probably have small areas of retardation in their brains, while "ret*d" people simply have larger areas of that same retardation that people of "normal" intelligence have. My point is that it's all very rough catagorization at this point.
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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
Ragtime, you're not really clear and you seem to be mixing the two points of contention. I won't argue the "test results" because frankly, I don't believe that IQ tests are not culturally biased to begin with. That is, even if there is a disparity among "races" in regards to IQ testing, I don't find it evidence of anything. But if he wants to cite IQ disparity among the "races" then that's his deal.
His complaint about black employees is different. That is purely subjective and based on prejudiced values. He is attaching a (negative) personal opinion onto a research topic.
And why is complaining about this guy somehow a threat to free speech? Was this guy thrown in jail? Put in house arrest? No, a committee decided that they didn't want him to represent their function.
Having an opinion is normal. But people also have a right to hold you accountable for it if it denigrates someone.
BTW, Scott Joplin and I share a birthday, different year though.
His complaint about black employees is different. That is purely subjective and based on prejudiced values. He is attaching a (negative) personal opinion onto a research topic.
So, who gets to decide what prejudice is? I know a guy who's had black employees work for him, and said those employees were dishonest. He hired Mexicans, and they worked out just fine. The employer is white. So, is he a racist, or is he just stating his experience?
I’m just saying that Watson may have simply talked to some employers he knows, and happened to have heard specific negative stories about black employees, and assumed it was indicative of the norm. In that case, you can’t blame Watson for hearing the information and relaying it, or label him “prejudiced”. If he thought black employees were the best, you’d be less likely to call him “prejudiced”.
I'm not talking about my friend generalizing about blacks and Mexicans based on those few experiences, I'm saying he's not going to know whether or not they're indicative. Obviously, there are plenty of honest black people, and plenty of dishonest Mexicans, so don't pretend I'M drawing conclusions. I'm just saying don't be the Thought Police.
Really? Because I've read a biography on him, and multiple other articles, and his birthday is not generally known. There is a common date given (Nov 24, 1968), but that's been shown by his biographers (specifically Edward Berlin) to likely be incorrect based on other details of his life. But we do know that he died in a hospital in New York, New York on April 1, 1917. (Which, interestingly or not, is April Fool's Day.)
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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
Why do you keep coming back with the Thought Police/Free Speech stuff?
Prejudice is self-explanatory, it's judging people based on assumed generalizations. He's tying his personal opinion (that has no scientific or rational basis) to his research background. Because of his celebrity status in the science world, his opinion (which denigrates another race) has more weight to it. It's not more complicated than that. The committee understandably doesn't want to be responsible for this guy if he starts "lecturing" on something so bogus and inflamatory.
Your "friend" isn't racist for stating his history but would be if he based his future hiring practices on that history. I make no qualms about having prejudiced ideas and behaviors either. It's a human trait we all share.
Having been raised in a very White corner of the world, I have noticed that people seem to magnify their experience with people of different ethnicity. The town could have 100,000 people with 95% of them white but when they see a Black man or an Asian family they notice right away and will remember everything they did, good or bad. The White employer might have had more white employees that were dishonest but he doesn't think about it because he isn't "looking" at them.
Because all he's doing is citing test results, and later, making a personal speculation about employees.
Then, without even addressing whether or not that speculation may have some merit, you brand him "prejudiced".
Well, I'd have to assume that you are prejudiced, since prejudiced means pre-judging before one has all the evidence.
Yeah. Learning is wrong. You just stated that if he learned from history, that would be wrong. Do you hear yourself?
As a matter of fact, he DID learn from history, and DID base his future hirings on his experience. Guess what? He didn't have any more employee problems.
BTW, why is my "friend" in quotes? He's my friend, not my "friend". What kind of aspersion are you casting with that rudeness?
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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
Last edited by Ragtime on 19 Oct 2007, 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
UncleBeer
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Okay, you're reading way too much into my writing style, while taking some things personally.
I said several times that tying his personal opinions (that denigrate a whole race) with his research (which is unrelated to the former) is what is at issue. The need for him to connect the two issues and comment publicly on them is racist and wrong, imo.
I already said I'm prejudiced, what's the point of reiterating that? You don't have to assume anything there. However, objecting to a person's actions is not indicative of prejudiced belief. Disagreeing with Watson is not a prejudiced act.
I put your friend in quotes because I was referring to someone I don't know and ascribing an identity to them. No insult or aspersion implied or given.
Your friend is basing his experience with people who can't be represented by other people. Yes, his actions are racist if he believes black employees are more likely to be dishonest and is using race to overlook a set of people he doesn't know. Black is not a culture, though there is Black culture. Black is simply a highly visible physical appearance.
I said several times that tying his personal opinions (that denigrate a whole race) with his research (which is unrelated to the former) is what is at issue. The need for him to connect the two issues and comment publicly on them is racist and wrong, imo.
Well, he's now "untied" that. He recently distanced his personal opinions in that interview from his professional expertise. It was the headlines' fault anyway, deliberately connecting his expertise with his stated personal opinions with things like "DNA Co-Discoverer Says Blacks Less Intelligent than Whites". The media love to make juicy connections that aren't there, because it sells more. He never said in the original interview that those were his professional conclusions. Yet, the headlines were crafted to make it look that way. So, he lost a speech opportunity, and found himself reeling to clarify what the headlines had deliberately misrepresented.
Ah, don't you love the media?
Of course, that's not entirely true.
Hey, he's just going on his experience. You can't fault a person for that. You make decisions based on your experience too. Everybody does.
Self-contradictory.
Or, you're saying that blacks just decided to one day invent a concept of black culture.
Which would essentially be calling black culture false.
Which is it?
_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
Of course I can your friend a racist if he is using race to disqualify job applicants. He is the one using race as the determining factor.
There is no contradiction in my statement about Black culture. Being Black, African-American or whatever your preferred choice of label, does not mean you're part of any Black culture. Just like being Indian doesn't mean I'm part of Indian culture, or having Mexican ancestors means you're part of Hispanic culture.
don't edit your post to change your question. It makes it confusing.
Which would essentially be calling black culture false.
Which is it?
Wow, that is not in that statement at all. Culture occurs when people are grouped together and share common values, language, experience. So, there can be Black culture (like Lutheran culture or Jewish culture or Hippy Culture). However, not all Blacks share the same experience and so, it follows that being Black doesn't necessarily mean you're part of any larger Black culture.