"WHAT IF?" (USA Slavery Restitution)

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ValMikeSmith
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16 Oct 2008, 11:16 pm

What if: next year "the government of the USA" decided to pay "slavery restitution"?
(Not "what if NOT", just "what if" and "only if".)
THEN How do you think it should be done?

Of course I don't like the idea but here are some example "how" ideas:

1)Only descendants of slaveowners pay only descendants of slaves.
2)Only historical slave-owning states would pay taxes for this purpose.
3)Only states that existed before the civil war would pay taxes for this purpose.
4)Only former confederate states would pay taxes for this purpose
5)Only people whose families immigrated before the civil war would pay
6)Only White People would pay
7)Only white people would pay, but with many exceptions
8)Union states would pay less than confederate states
9)EVERYONE WOULD PAY including states that didn't even exist during the civil war
SUCH AS:
California, Oregon, Washington, Alaska, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Kansas, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming, Nevada... and also territories such as Puerto Rico.



Cyberman
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16 Oct 2008, 11:26 pm

It would have to be Number 9, because there is no "fair" way to do it. If this were to pass, it would be impossible to accurately say who should be "blamed" for slavery. In reality, no one alive today is to blame... we are not our ancestors, and we are not responsible for the actions of our ancestors... only OUR OWN actions.



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16 Oct 2008, 11:42 pm

Cyberman wrote:
It would have to be Number 9, because there is no "fair" way to do it. If this were to pass, it would be impossible to accurately say who should be "blamed" for slavery. In reality, no one alive today is to blame... we are not our ancestors, and we are not responsible for the actions of our ancestors... only OUR OWN actions.


Ditto. I think the best thing we could do is provide school vouchers so that kids who want to go places in life, get straight A's, and not have to worry about catching a fade in the hallway over it are the people we need to look out for most.

Also, I think the next 20 or 30 years will bring major changes to the African American culture; keep in mind that Jim Crow laws were only repealed 40 or 50 years ago and that its still a fresh wound. That and the first wave civil rights leaders are still running around like its the 70's. The leadership will change and its already becoming more apparent (aside from the current presidential primaries) that a lot of the racial divides are on their way out. As people my age have kids and the kids wonder what on gods green earth their parents are thinking politically when half their friends are white - it'll happen even more.



KaliMa
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16 Oct 2008, 11:56 pm

Well, the value of being an American citizen rather than a citizen of Darfur or Sudan or wherever their ancestors would have stayed if not for slavery would have to be deducted from any restitution. There are many people from Africa who risk much to come to America; being here rather than there must be valuable to them.

Then there would have to be deductions for the probability that the current recipients' ancestors would have lost the money during the Great Depression like most people did, or lost it at some other time, say from bad investments or from spending it or from being scammed. I don't know how those adjustments would be calculated, but I assume there must be a way. The assumption that the restitution would have not been spent or lost or mismanaged is the foundation for the demands for large sums in restitution now, in my opinion. There is no reason to believe the restitution would still be sitting around, untouched by all the generations between the sufferers and the current descendants, in a bank somewhere.

I also understand the former slaves were offered restitution, but many of them refused it because it consisted of 40 acres and a mule in disputed Indian Territory, where there was a war going on. The US Government wanted to settle as many Non-Native People in the Territory as possible to bolster their claim on the land, and saw the former slaves as likely candidates - still looking to use these people. Still, if the actual victims refused restitution, their descendants who did not suffer slavery shouldn't be able to claim that restitution for themselves now.

It's very complicated. I as someone whose ancestors never owned slaves would not want to pay restitution for slavery that other people's ancestors committed.

Also, the descendants of slave holders' are assumed to be rich due to the labor of the slaves, when in fact many Southerners lost much of what they owned when the Civil War rolled through their states, or during the Depression. Many may be poor themselves, and therefore judgement-proof.

By the way, I have Native American ancestry - where is MY restitution? There were black soldiers in the post-Civil War army, Native Americans called them "Buffalo Soldiers" - do their descendants owe ME restitution?

Definitions of 'buffalo soldier'
The American Heritage® Dictionary- (1 definition)

[Translation of a Kiowa term, from the perceived similarity between the soldiers' hair and the hair on a buffalo's head.]

(noun)
A member of one of the African-American regiments within the U.S. Army after the Civil War, serving primarily in the Indian wars of the late 1860s.



Ishmael
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17 Oct 2008, 12:42 am

Stupid idea; descendants paying for their ancestors mistakes, simply because of the colour of their skin? What about white people with black ancestors? Black people with white ancestors?
That would be the sort of idiocy to increase American racial tensions.
Everybody involved in that slavery idiocy is long dead; why resurrect something without meaning? By that same logic; all European nations should overnight erupt into warfare based on what their ancestors have done to one another.
Can I demand money from the English for what they did to Wales and Ireland?


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jrknothead
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17 Oct 2008, 2:09 am

We already have that... it's called welfare, and everyone pays for it via income taxes...



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17 Oct 2008, 2:44 am

It's kind of hard to say "black" and "white" when most US most citizens are a hodge-podge of various races. Perfect example is Obama. He's only 6% black if you break down his racial heritage.


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17 Oct 2008, 4:38 am

What about Portugal? The merchants from that country were the chief slave traders. How about Spain, England, and France? Why is this just a question for Just the US? How about Denmark? There were several countries that engaged in the slave trade in the New World long before the US was even a country! Why are they off the hook? To be honest, most of the countries that engaged in the greatest genocide in human history (some 200 million "natives" of the americas were killed) also traded in African slaves long before 1776! (or 1783 if you are fussy about dates!) What about the decendants of the Africans that sold other Africans in to slavery? Don't they have to pay too? How about the companies that engaged in the slave trade? The whole thing was much bigger than just the US, it was a world problem, shouldn't the world pay for it?



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17 Oct 2008, 6:36 am

Slavery can not be reinstated due to the 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. Also it is most likely that it will not repealed due to every member of the House and Senate down to the states/commonwealths (VA, MA, PA, and KY) legislature know that it will wrong to repealed and restarted a cruel and harsh chapter of American History once again.


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Ishmael
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17 Oct 2008, 7:14 am

JerryHatake wrote:
Slavery can not be reinstated due to the 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. Also it is most likely that it will not repealed due to every member of the House and Senate down to the states/commonwealths (VA, MA, PA, and KY) legislature know that it will wrong to repealed and restarted a cruel and harsh chapter of American History once again.


Who on earth is talking about reinstating US slavery? What are you talking about? Are you confused about the meaning of this thread?


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17 Oct 2008, 8:01 am

Ishmael wrote:
Stupid idea; descendants paying for their ancestors mistakes, simply because of the colour of their skin? What about white people with black ancestors? Black people with white ancestors?
That would be the sort of idiocy to increase American racial tensions.
Everybody involved in that slavery idiocy is long dead; why resurrect something without meaning? By that same logic; all European nations should overnight erupt into warfare based on what their ancestors have done to one another.
Can I demand money from the English for what they did to Wales and Ireland?


In that case I demand restitution from either France (for the Norman Invasion) or perhaps Stockholm and Reykjavik.. or Saxony..Or Denmark..or Imperial Rome..or ancient Mercia!

How about making the tribes of Africa pay restitution to the poor african bastards they rounded up and sold to the slavers eh? And does anyone ever notice the vast numbers of slaves who disappeared into the middle east ever?


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17 Oct 2008, 8:08 am

Paying restitution for something that happened over 200 years ago is probably a bad idea ... who would pay? who would be paid?

In Africa itself, the most common slavers were Africans. It was common practice that when two tribes went to war, anyone captures as what we would now consider a PoW, or a captured civilian, would be enslaved.
The Portuguese, British, Spanish, Dutch and Americans (and many others, including many Arabs, and ...) would buy the slaves from the various warring tribes and ship them back home, or to the new world
They would be sold again, and again.

Slavery is/was/and always will be wrong ... but trying to identify one group (white americans?) and forcing them to pay restitution to another group (black americans? black africans in africa?) does not make sense ... it was never that simple an issue to start with; and now 200 years later, it's even more complicated.



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17 Oct 2008, 8:10 am

JerryHatake wrote:
Slavery can not be reinstated due to the 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. Also it is most likely that it will not repealed due to every member of the House and Senate down to the states/commonwealths (VA, MA, PA, and KY) legislature know that it will wrong to repealed and restarted a cruel and harsh chapter of American History once again.


Jerry, I think you only scanned the original post. If you read it more carefully, you'll find the thread is about paying the descendants of the slaves restitution to make up for the wrongs committed, not about reinstating slavery. You're right, the constitution already repealed and outlawed slavery, and if anyone even suggested it, I'm sure the blacks would fight tooth and nail to prevent it :)



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17 Oct 2008, 8:25 am

KaliMa wrote:
JerryHatake wrote:
Slavery can not be reinstated due to the 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. Also it is most likely that it will not repealed due to every member of the House and Senate down to the states/commonwealths (VA, MA, PA, and KY) legislature know that it will wrong to repealed and restarted a cruel and harsh chapter of American History once again.


Jerry, I think you only scanned the original post. If you read it more carefully, you'll find the thread is about paying the descendants of the slaves restitution to make up for the wrongs committed, not about reinstating slavery. You're right, the constitution already repealed and outlawed slavery, and if anyone even suggested it, I'm sure the blacks would fight tooth and nail to prevent it :)


Thank you for pointing in the right direction. The idea would strange to pay back to descendants of slaves since for my family, my ancestors came after the war between the states so my family wouldn't have to pay spite being a Northern Virginian. The idea would drop dead to pay back since what is the economical gain from in the first place, thus not a rational economical reason but realist economical belief (not always good asked true economists and Economics Professor at universities about it). Thus what is there to gain from this paying back in the end.


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17 Oct 2008, 10:20 am

I think you're all missing a point.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_for_slavery

Quote:
The arguments surrounding reparations are based on the formal discussion about reparations and actual land reparations received by African-Americans which were later taken away. In 1865, after the Confederate States of America were defeated in the American Civil War, General William Tecumseh Sherman issued Special Field Orders, No. 15 to solve problems caused by the masses of refugees, a temporary plan granting each freed family forty acres of tillable land in the sea islands and around Charleston, South Carolina for the exclusive use of black people who had been enslaved. The army also had a number of unneeded mules which were given to settlers. Around 40,000 freed slaves were settled on 400,000 acres (1,600 km²) in Georgia and South Carolina. However, President Andrew Johnson reversed the order after Lincoln was assassinated and the land was returned to its previous owners. In 1867, Thaddeus Stevens sponsored a bill for the redistribution of land to African Americans, but it was not passed.


The decendants of these former-slaves are claiming that they were given property which was then seized by the US Government without compensation.



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17 Oct 2008, 10:26 am

ValMikeSmith wrote:
What if: next year "the government of the USA" decided to pay "slavery restitution"?
(Not "what if NOT", just "what if" and "only if".)
THEN How do you think it should be done?

Not at all.

No one currently alive was ever a slave, and no one curently alive ever owned a slave.

The question is irrelevant.

The more appropriate question would be:

"Why are certain ethnic groups looking for any excuse to receive yet another handout from the U.S. govenrment when they are already the most numerous recipients of Food Stamps, Welfare, WIC vouchers, and Affirmative Action?"


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Last edited by Fnord on 17 Oct 2008, 10:29 am, edited 3 times in total.