Women Talking

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I borrowed this thread title from the movie Women Talking.

I've been thinking a lot about the social expectations placed on girls and women about the ways they should communicate, verbally or in written form, which differ from the standards allowed to men or people whose gender isn't disclosed.

What I've noticed is that if I rant, become sarcastic, or have a bad day and express my feelings with harsh language, tone, or an "attitude", I'm judged very harshly. This seems to be true online even if I don't do personal attacks or indirect / covert attacks on anyone, or break any rules, but rather just speak my mind the way men often do with impunity. It also happens in real life when I have a meltdown or express anger, sarcasm, or a bad mood of any sort.

I don't want to hear that the social norms are different for women. I can clearly see that. I live that every day. I want to use this thread to express how painful it is for me to be vilified for speaking my mind, expressing emotion, and otherwise defending myself when I've been attacked, judged, or hurt by someone else.

I also want people to share their own experiences and observations about how damaging this gender norm can be.

Thank you!

Yeah, I certainly feel this. It's exhausting. There shouldn't be a double standard. People should be free to speak how they want to as long as rules aren't being broken. If there's something that I feel strongly about for some reason, I don't want to expend the energy to adapt my speech to fit prescribed gender norms. I want to focus on saying what I want to say - to express my opinion or viewpoint. Others are free to do the same.

The women in my family adhere strictly to gender norms because, in the culture I grew up in, gender was viewed as very important. Men and women were practically a different species. I tended to talk more like the men in my family. I have a soft, feminine voice, but I usually get straight to the point and say what I mean rather than beating about the bush. My mom and aunts don't fully seem to get me because of this although, if anything, I should be easier to understand because I say exactly what I'm thinking and meaning. Well, I'm tactful and avoid hurting people's feelings. (No, that dress doesn't make you look fat. That sort of thing).

Perhaps this stuff can make a person feel like a bit of an outsider. I tend not to talk a lot. I wouldn't change the way I am, though. There's nothing wrong with marching to the beat of your own drum.

Part of the reason I'm mute irl is because I learned from a young age that I couldn't speak my truth. The earliest, most illustrative example I remember was when I was SA by a distant relative at seven years old. I didn't have words to express what had happened, but I told the man to F Off in front of my parents and other members of the family. It was the only way I could express my anger and confusion at that age.

My parents punished me for causing a rift in the family because we were never invited to go boating or snowmobiling with those people again. I never did tell my parents, and I learned that it wasn't safe for me to have and express strong feelings. I don't even think it was because I used a curse word, per se. I think if I'd said anything blunt in that tone of voice to a man I would have been punished just as harshly.

My pattern hasn't changed. I'm a very empathetic and caring person who would do just about anything for anyone, but I'm a person of few words and I don't articulate emotion well. It's a combination of Alexithymia and mutism, but now also trauma and shame. When something is bothering me I tend to let it percolate until I snap with sarcasm or a rapier retort, and it shocks people so much they push me away.

I've struggled with selective mutism. My mom was very unsupportive when I told her about sexual abuse I had experienced. She made it all about her. I learned that it was better to keep things to myself. Growing up, my mom was very volatile and even had to take anger management classes. I learned that I could set her off, leading to screaming, yelling, or physical abuse. My dad's refrain was: "Don't upset your mother." It wasn't just that he didn't want me to misbehave; it was more like he didn't want me telling her anything that she might find upsetting. My religion taught me that my views and opinions were bad or wrong, so I kept them to myself. I think it was the perfect storm. I was extremely socially isolated, too, since I homeschooled.

When I was a young child, I was quite outgoing, but that changed as I got older because I learned that it wasn't safe.

Do you have Alexithymia?

What are the men like in your family / social circle experience?
How do they express big feelings, and how is it received?

I was not diagnosed with Alexithymia, but I think that I could have it.

The men in my family don't discuss emotions. Well, my brother does. He's probably more emotional than I am. Apart from my brother, they tend to be very private about personal stuff and often use humor to avoid talking about their feelings or topics they consider private.

They are direct, to the point, and even blunt sometimes.

Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 02 Oct 2023, 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Including bad moods?

Yeah, they don't even talk about bad moods.

My dad gets angry when he's in a bad mood. It's very obvious.

What about men you know from college, or work, or "real life" ?

Do they ever have meltdowns like your mother did, or curse, or get sarcastic?

Have you ever noticed men being allowed to rant in ways that women can't?

They seem to be able to say what they want to, especially when it comes to discussing stuff like politics. Women are expected to be nicer and less direct. It's hard to have a political debate and be sweet at the same time. I wouldn't engage in personal attacks, though. It's not nice and it does not help one's case.

I've noticed that men often get sarcastic when discussing politics and it doesn't seem to bother people as much as when a woman does it. When a woman gets involved in a heated debate and employs sarcasm, people often suggest that it's PMS of something.

Understood.

Hard for me to express my thoughts on this without seeming like a misogynistic jerk or a "mansplainer".

With my wife, I have insisted that she tell me immediately when I have offended her.  This has led to a few awkward moments among friends and relatives, but it is better for us both if she does not hold it in and pretend nothing is wrong until she "explodes" over something trivial.

My wife and I come from different cultures, so misunderstandings are common.

https://youtu.be/BN335Olfibs?feature=shared

I'd love your thoughts, Fnord!

Don't hold back!

I think sometimes I'm a little envious becuase you can speak up, be sarcastic, or or be witty with your words. It seems to be because you're a man. There are a few other men here (not sure if I should name them, but I'm thinking Goldfish, for one), who speak up and can be blunt with people but it's generally accepted as funny, deadpan, or just "the way" gruff men are, as if it's inherent to your personality or sex.

Likewise I don't see men accused of having conspiracies or cliques with other men if they agree or fail to disagree on big topics. I went through months of those accusations from people who were upset with me about the groomer facts. Men don't get called snowflakes or drama kings either, and they don't seem to be judged for hormonal fluctuations despite the existence of andropause.

Thank you.Buckle in, this could get rough.I can speak up because, short of physical violence (or a moderator's banhammer), no one can make me shut up.  Knowing this, I am no longer intimidated by threats of violence.  I also know that the person who throws the first punch has lost the argument -- if the only defense someone has for what they say is to threaten violence, then what they say likely has no merit of its own.Depends on the topic and how big it is. Testifying on behalf of women who have been harassed in the workplace earned me more than a few threats and a lot of accusations of being part of an alleged gay-feminist-liberal-socialist conspiracy.  Sticking up for the rights of women, minorities, and LGBT+ people (and the laws that support them) resulted in physical attacks, vandalism to my property, lies being told about my personal habits and interests, and more threats.

Security cameras and corporate email audits exonerated me, more often than not, and revealed that the real conspirators were those who committed those hostile acts against me.

Men are not immune to these things, but maybe we handle them differently . . . ?

Thanks for sharing. Great answer.

Was your testimony about the harassment of women at work received differently than women's testimony, as victims or witnesses? Were female witnesses or the victims themselves also accused of conspiracies (e.g., to blame and frame men)?

I know men, women, and non-binary people who have had threats of violence or death threats here on WP. I know many who have been threatened or attacked in real life too, including women.

No one can really shut me up either, if they choose to provoke me. I don't usually start conflict myself. In fact, it's extremely rare, but when someone lies about me or my friends and family, or someone attacks me (us), they can expect a full barrage of choice verbiage, if not more, which won't break any rules but it will clearly demonstrate how I feel.

When you said you think men might handle aggression differently, do you mean that you'll fight back? I'll stand my ground and speak the truth but if push comes to shove I'll fight physically as well. I've done that in self-defence just like most men.

I find it interesting how people who disagree with something I post on WP assume all sorts of evil things about my motivation, insult my intelligence, call me nasty names, and/or wish bad things would happen to me.  Many writers appear to believe that my views are determined by financial considerations and/or controlled by outside entities such as "Big Pharma" or the "Woke Movement".  Many appear absolutely certain that their beliefs are valid, especially when real, long-established fact refute them.  Many have just "screamed" about me in PMs without specifying what (if anything) they have read in my posts that bothers them.

I have many "Foes" listed in my WP account, and use the list to trigger the delete-before-reading function in my private messages.

*** TRIGGER ALERT ***

I guess what I am trying to say in this post is that there are ways to handle some kinds of personal attack.  Verbal attacks can be ignored and/or reported  Physical attacks and sexual assaults, however, are more difficult to deal with because (1) the attacker is usually stronger than the victim, and (2) the authorities will usually do nothing until after the attack has occurred, and their first question is usually something, "What did you do to deserve it?"  For a man, it is like being accused of acting like an a-hole just to provoke a fight.  For a woman, this is tantamount to accusing her of leading the attacker on and "Asking for it".

The workplace was the worst.  I had to be there to earn a living, yet my attackers and detractors were there, too.  Now that I am retired, it is amazing how little stress I am under.