"I would say you don't have Asperger's..."

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Tea, you should just read the book! Pandorazmtbox has the right idea. Simone practically wrote my diary for me.

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Thanks!

Thanks everybody. I appreciate all of the insight and suggestions.

Last week I went in for my first counceling session for the depression. In the state I'm in I simply cannot talk about myself. The first few words out of my mouth and I well up. I hate it and I really wish there was a way around that but - 42 years - I don't think its changing anytime soon. Anyway, anticipating the inability to talk I wrote up a list of 'depression symptoms'. I know the routine well. If I want them to have a clear, inclusive picture, I'm going to need to write it or else I'll end up being guided through 13 weeks of useless conversations about my father again. While writing it up, I realized many of the 'big' issues all stememd from the AS symptoms I've finally come to recognize.

I took a DX list from one of the links we have here and also that list by Rudy Simone (her list is the one that finally broke me down - I couldn't deny it after that - I fit everything on that list except for 2 things) and I laid out my expression of each trait in detail. I told the therapist that it was really irrelevent whether or not I had a dx because everything in that list was a big part of my recurrent depression either way. I also explained that to the doctor (who hadn't read my chart...). This same doctor also suggested I could have social anxiety disorder, not AS and again I laughed. I'm not afraid of people. I shot her down so fast she wasn't sure what to say. If I'm not flapping my hands, walking on my toes, talking totally flat and only talking about my interests - I'm not sure this doctor will be of much use.

I felt I needed to let my dx be known to these professionals because I am currently looking into getting services for my daughter. In someways, I'm probably a better teacher than anyone they could send me - I've been working with Asperger's for 42 years. I have more experience than them But I also recognize, my daughter isn't going to get the social skills that I just can't teach her. We need help for that and they need to know why. As much as I didn't want to get a dx for myself, in order to get the services for my daughter, I may need to.

pandorazmtbox and Bassman_720 - you are so right. I only came to accept the inevitable this past January, not long after my daughter had her official dx. I denied it for years as I researched and learned all I could for her sake. Knowing that all the struggle, all the things that seem so easy for everyone else and seem so insurmountable to me had a reason... it was such a relief. I've spent decades mentally abusing myself for being a loser and a failure yet somehow still held onto the belief that different is a good thing. I think I believe that more now than ever before. But I can let go of the guilt. It's not a personal failing of character, it's a neurological difference with a different set of rules than those I had been judging myself by. As far as Asperger's go - I do think I have a more mild expression of it. I know I'm VERY good at hiding. And I also know that I have so rarely let myself just be myself that I don't even really know who I am anymore. I need to fix that.

rabidmonkey4262 - you are right. Reading body language became one of my interests after a training seminar in one of my jobs. I was so into the entire profiling/psychology of it, I did rabidly teach myself all I could. I used to go to the mall and just people watch - testing out each new skill I learned. That alone may make a dx for me impossible. Although, when I mentioned Rudy Simone's book and how well I fit the criteria she kind of did a double take. Apparently she wasn't expecting me to have actually read anything. Wait til she finds out I fit most of Tony Attwoods criteria as well.

So thanks for listening to my ramblings folks. I appreciate it immensely. I'm sure it will only get more interesting from here.

Good god. Ninjas have been following me, taking notes, and then wrote that chart, haven't they? It practically describes me in my entirety. Eerie.

Reading this thread I realized how lucky I am that the psychologist I went to for depression has some experience working with families who have both children and adults with AS. I actually worked with a psychology professor in college after having trouble with making eye contact on learning how to fake it, so I am good at those things when I have to be. (of course back then I had no clue WHY I couldn't do them naturally and neither did the professor (this was in the early-mid 1980s), but he was the father of a friend of mine so he was willing to help me). Geeze...scary...

~Kate

Reading this thread has been a comfort to me. It's only in the last few weeks that I started to think I might seriously have Asperger's. I thought about the autism spectrum before, but nothing seemed to fit - as you all say, it's geared not only towards children, but towards males too.

I don't think all the symptoms fit me. I can make eye contact with people although I've noticed that I tend to prefer to look at their mouths and neither do I get obsessions as such. I do like to do things repetitively though. I'll watch the same TV episodes and the same films and play the same games and even read the same books over again.

What really resonates with me is everything to do with social skills. I do have a husband, no idea how, but very few friends. I meet people, I talk to them, I might even meet up with them for a bit. After that, things just fade. I don't know how to sustain friendships or keep conversations going. These days I can barely be bothered being polite even at the beginning. I'm just so tired from work and from all the failures that have gone before.

Thank you for making this thread. I hope those of you brave enough to talk to 'professionals' and push for a diagnosis can get the help you need. Personally, I haven't even found the courage to talk to my husband about it yet. I'm worried he'll think I'm just making up lazy excuses for being who I am.

Well, today was the therapist. Since I so kindly provided her with ammunition, we started looking at 'the list' of Asperger's symptoms. I copied two lists of symptoms:

List of Asperger's Symptoms
Asperger's Traits in Women

and I filled in my responses to each one. I feel I definitely have some traits from 'column a,b, and c' and while Rudy Simone isn't a doctor, I believe her book and list of traits is fairly well accepted as a fair representation of Asperger's in women. If anyone sees a diagnostic fault in these two lists, in the general sense, please let me know. She was clearly skeptical of 'anything found online'. If there is a more appropriate 'offical' dx list I'd appreciate the link. These two are clear, succinct and, from what I've read, the basics to adult dx.

Well, as well meaning as this therapist is, she was initially very misguided in my reasons for presenting her that list. (despite having clearly stated my reason several times) I am not looking for a dx. I believe my own dx. Recognizing and accepting my self dx has been a source of comfort for me - it has not compounded my depression, which was already in place before any of this was an issue. She had assumed I was suffering from some distress over this dx and initially started doing exactly what I told her I was afraid of - she was going point by point trying to dispprove them. The answer to most of her questions was that "I learned to do XXX in my 20's." At that point she backed up and started telling me that any treatment I might receive for Asperger's would only teach me things I seemed to have already taught myself.

I'm sorry but... duh. (I didn't... but the urge was there.)

I know this. I'm not looking for a dx specifically nor for 'treatment' - (again) the list outlines my ongoing life challenges and how they have contributed to my recurrent depression. DX or not these issues have impacted my entire life. I told her I doubt I'm diagnosable because I've learned these skills but that didn't remove the causes. Just because I can make eye contact, doesn't mean I don't crawl out of my skin to do it. Just because I can initiate conversation and make small talk doesn't mean I always get the flow of it right or that, sometimes the content is 'wrong' - too personal, too out-of-left-field, generally awkward. She had particular issue with my 'dumbing down' my speech and vocabulary. She made an example of doctors - no one expects them to dumb down their speech, they are respected professionals and people accept them and their speech without thinking less of them. I'm surprised I needed to point out that if I was in a social group that included doctors and educated people I wouldn't have to dumb down anything... that isn't the reality of my situation. And doctors do dumb down their speech when they feel they are talking to those less educated than themselves. I've noticed that quite a bit because it is annoying as hell to be spoken down to like that - but most people don't really seem to notice it.

Her basic approach was that normal people have the same problems that I'm having. She thinks my self esteem issues have caused insecurities but that doesn't necessarily point to Asperger's. I know for fact that I had self esteem until my difficulties just kept compounding and that nothing I do or try fixes them. The insecurities were caused by the issues - not the other way around.

That conversation ended on the topic of pretending. All the 'skills' I taught myself are 'how to fake it." She had issue with that because if something made it easier to get along in social situations it wasn't faking it. *sigh* I can never 'be myself' if I always need to utilize my social tool kit. It's not me, it's an act. It's still unnatural, It is me actively suppressing my true personality in order to make other people more comfortable. It is a lie and I'm tired of lying. It's too exhausting. I've reached my limit for it. I want to be me again and, unfortunately, that is not conducive to gainful employment, friends or getting along in 'normal' society very well. She thinks all of this will be fixed with repaired self esteem. I have self esteem. I'm fairly realistic about myself, my flaws and my strengths. I've built my own self esteem quite a bit over the years. I'm depressed and may not be feeling it at the moment but the foundations of it are still there. Forcing myself to look her in the eye will still make my skin crawl no matter how good I feel about myself. I still will not have any innate sense of time. I will still need to physically force myself away from a project I am engrossed in and I will still be moody and snippy after doing so.

She had alot of issue with the word 'lying'. And I strongly feel that social skills training is lying. It is designed to make other people feel comfortable with you - so they can read you through their inborn 'theory of mind', blahblahblah... Teaching those skills gives you a tool in order to get the responses you want. It doesn't incorporate them into the matrix. They are never 'natural'. They may become easier over time but they will never 'be me'. It is a lie. Can the psych professions truly be that deluded to think that teaching social skills means they are somehow ingrained? That it is something other than just another bit of rote memorization? It's like learning how to conjugate in a foreign language - once you 'get it', it all comes easier but it will never be your native language. She seemed almost insulted by my use of the word - which is where we came to an impass. I am rigid on this one. When mom taught me it was wrong to lie, I listened very carefully. The fact is that children are not supposed to lie to their parents. Adults lie to each other all the time on a daily basis. But they call it 'empathy'... the little white lie... thinking of other peoples feelings...call it what you will. Editting your thoughts and reframing them in order to please other people is lying - to them and to yourself. It is why people 'talk behind other people's backs', in order to say what they REALLY feel. I have no patience for it anymore.

It's kind of funny... we briefly touched on the family thing. My reactions to my mother's death were a topic. I was all blubbery. She thought I had unresolved pain from it. I don't. But, reliving it brought back the emotions from the event. I really couldn't explain the difference to her but it is distinct to me. Much of my issue revolved around religion and my mother's faith failing her. I do still have issues with that and probably always will. But, I explained that my reaction to any given situation is my choice. Other people do not have control of my emotions, I have control of how I choose to react. I do believe this, in essence. Apparently, people can go through years of therapy and never grasp that concept. I still have issues with uncontrollable emotional responses to specific stimuli. No matter what tools, tactics and redirections I use I cannot control my overwhelming emotional outbursts. And, I can see these for what they are - a physical response not really associated with a corrosponding emotion to the situation at hand. My actual feelings are something I can control and I have gotten much better at it over the years. She couldn't understand what I was trying to say. That the feeling and the expression of a possibly unrelated feeling are, many times, two seperate entities for me. She thinks I can learn to control the inapropriate emotional responses... I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and give it a go. Maybe she has a new bag of tricks to try. But somehow, I really think there is a fundamental disconnect there. I do not think she can wrap her brain around the idea that crying when reliving my mother's death is anything other than unresolved pain. That is what she knows. Tears on the face mean pain in the heart/thought/feelings. At least now I am old enough to know when she will just be spinning her wheels and I'll be able to let her know.

Why are they so focused on proving to me that I don't have Asperger's when the dx is irrelevent? As I've stated several times. Will somehow proving that I am just a NT loser with issues somehow help my self esteem? Does a self identification with Asperger's - which reframes the standards I hold myself to thus gives me permission to be kinder and gentler with myself - somehow hurt or hinder me in someway? I just cannot figure out what their angle is. Yet. I will though.

All that said - I do think she will be a wonderful therapist for the depression for the simple reason that I have no one to talk to and she is proving easy to talk to. If I had a good friend to do the same thing, I'd accomplish just as much. She's just getting paid to be my bff. And thats okay. I wouldn't have gone if I didn't think I needed to hear my thoughts outloud and receive some validation in return. Sometimes you need to bounce your ideas and conclusions off a knowledgable collegue to ensure you are on the right track. Real progress is hard to make in a vacuum. There are some language barriers there - the whole WP conundrum - two amiable aliens trying to understand one another. She just hasn't realized I'm an alien yet. But she'll willing to listen and open to it so who knows. Maybe we'll get somewhere.

Here's hoping.

Last edited by draelynn on 21 Apr 2011, 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm not sure I would have been able to take away as many positives from this meeting that you have. I too have issues with lying. The one I hate the most is when I say I don't want to do something and then other people spend ten minutes trying to convince me to do the thing I don't want to do. People do that to each other all the time and it always seems to me that the person who said 'no' in the beginning will change their answer to a 'yes'. I don't do that. If I give an answer to something then that's what I mean. I don't need to be manipulated or persuaded or made to feel wanted, I just want my first answer to be listened to.

As for your therapist denying your AS, I think that could just be an automatic reaction on her part. She's decided to insist on a negative because you're so intent on proving a positive. I don't know how to help you there since I've never been to therapy and, like I said, I don't know if I really am an aspie or not. I think I am, or I'm just really, amazingly, socially inept - a kid on a playground standing by herself in a crowd of three hundred kids, there has to be a reason for that, right?

Maybe the next time you see your therapist you should ask her straight out why she's so insistent that you don't have AS. Don't let her get away with pushing you on your other issues or circling back to the depression, important though it is. Insist that she tells you why she wants to deny it so much. Point out to her that regardless of whether or not you do actually have it - don't worry, I believe you do - your belief is valid for you and it hurts you to have her dismiss it so quickly. If that gives her pause for thought then push it a little more and ask her how many adults she's met who've been diagnosed with AS and how they seemed to her to function. At this point it's likely she'll hide behind patient confidentiality, which is fine, you just want her to realise that this may be a weak area for her and that she should consider your points more carefully.

I hope this is helpful for you. I'm sorry about your mother's death too.

^^^ thank you - mom's been gone for 18 years. And really, no one 'gets over' that. I think losing your mother at any age is a profund life event that changes everyone. The hurt of it has long since dulled but trying to explain that as you are crying is... well, near impossible.

Me and this therapist are feeling things out. I think she may have caught on that we are approaching just about everything from two completely opposite perspectives.
(... there's a hint in there...) Again, when I presented her my 'list', I was generally teary eyed. She read 'pain from the self dx' where there really is none because my emotional response, at that time, was solely depression induced - a physical reaction. She might catch on. I have hope. If she continues with the 'proving me wrong' I will back her off. I am there for depression. We need to address issues. Asperger's isn't an 'issue'. It's just a state of being in my mind. Poor social interaction - no matter the reason - is an issue. She should be able to work with that distinction.

I totally feel your pain on the persuasion issue! My responses are usually very well thought out, accounting for quite a few variables. My answer is my answer. Forcing me to do something I clearly told you I didn't want to is going to result in a crabby b***h. Don't even try to say I didn't tell you... No means no, right? I can see where guys may have been confused on this because no doesn't always mean no is all situations. It took a law to clarify that in THIS situation - take the word at face value. Wouldn't it be easier to do that all the time? Words have meanings for a reason, right?

I disagree. Sometimes people come up with a compromise and I don't think that is lying when you say yes. My husband wanted to re arrange the furniture in our apartment. I said no because I didn't want the change. He told me he can move it back if it doesn't look right so I said okay. He moved the furniture and what do you know I liked it. It doesn't look crowded anymore with the baby stuff. I don't think this was manipulation either.

I think they may be two different things, to a degree. Being fixed in your ways and compromising on an issue like furniture is a calculated risk - if you don't like it, you can change it back. But, if someone asks you to go somehwere with them and you say no and they then continue to plead, cajole, pressure you until you finally give in and yes, and then get upset that you aren't having fun... it's a different thing. I've had this happen quite a bit.

Many people, if they are upset or down, react positively to a change of scenery. People try to do this to me because they think I'm down when, really, they are just reading my mood wrong because of my expression or my lack of interest in things they think I should be interested in. they try ot apply what works for them to you. They think they are helping by 'forcing' you to get out of the house and are then hurt and confused when you are even more miserable than they originally thought you were. In general, people are very bad at taking peoples words and reactions at face value. They are many times and in many ways reading into things. We don't need anyone reading between our lines. The deeper content they are used to looking for isn't hidden. What you see is what you get. They don't know how to take that.

Well, therapy was fairly uneventful today. Lots of boring family background and a sad sad face from my therapist 'wow - you have alot of tragedy in your life'. Yeah, well, I didn't get depression from the depression fairy... I was the one who had to ask a question that was bugging me since last week. I asked her why she thought I was upset or distraught over my self analysis of Asperger's. She was quite intent on disproving my claims one by one last week, trying to normalize the reasons I provided. She had to think hard on that. And she did some impressive verbal gymnastics to try and explain herself in the absolute least offensive, most sensitive way. It all boiled down to - she didn't want me use it as an excuse. (my word, definitely not hers)

Basically, she's leaning towards all of my 'issues' stemming from my depression. She has said that maybe the Asperger's challenges I identified may also be a cause but Asperger's didn't cause my depression. Well, the two are co-morbids. Asperger's may not be the cause but they exist frequently together for a reason. She and the dxing dr. are both suspicious of my 'chemical imbalance' claim. I've been on this ride many times before, I know how it works, I know when I need outside assistance in righting the imbalance and I know how it ends. At least she was accepting of my seasonal effective disorder reasoning. All of that aside, she still feels my oh so tragic past holds the issues of my depression. All the issues I'll be visiting with her I have internally visited and come to terms with over the last two decades. There won't be any new surprises for me. Maybe she'll have another angle I haven't thought of which is the reason I'm giving therapy a go. I'm doubtful but trying to remain optimistic.

Day 7 of half doses of Celexa - the switch flipped on day three. I woke up that morning and the depression switch had already felt like it had been reset. I had an easier time waking up, I wanted to do things around the house and my mood was generally lighter than it has been in months. Too bad it couldn't stay like that in that perfect balance. By day 6 my normal internal running commentary was falling silent and I can't keep a creative thought in my head. They are just gone. Had myself a small rant on that yesterday - if this is the way NT's feel all the time, I want no part of it. It feels like my mind is dead - like I'm now just a worker bee with no independant thought of my own. I just cannot tolerate this for long. I suppose this is part of the reason they prescribe SSRI's to autistic people - to help them 'focus'. If zombies have 'focus' then I guess it has succeeded. That is not a condemnation of anyone whom feels SSRI's are effective for them... they just mess too much with my head.

SSRI's bother me for more than just these reasons though. Celexa in particular has a nasty list of common side effects. Sure, it may work in depression but obviously, it is effecting many other unintended functions as well. Seratonin effects much more than just one mental function. SSRI's are as subtle a drug as a lobotomy was a treatment for every mental disorder in the 50's and 60'. Let's just impact the WHOLE system - as long as the depression is gone, be happy about it. Actually, I commented to my therapist about losing my creativity and she asked which was worse... depression or the drugs side effect. O_o Honestly, the side effect. It's a side effect that changes a big part of how I identify myself. If the drug ONLY treated depression I wouldn't need to make that sort of choice. I seriously think they need to refine these chemical based sledgehammers quite a bit further.

Gah, I would just lose the therapist. It's not worth wasting money on her.