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Is suicide a lesser sin than murder?

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Sweetleaf
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24 Dec 2011, 12:18 am

Dox47 wrote:
I would say it depends on who's getting murdered, but I'm not exactly considered a conventional thinker on this topic.


If there is good reason it's not murder.


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MikeB2of10
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24 Dec 2011, 1:34 am

Dox47 wrote:
I would say it depends on who's getting murdered, but I'm not exactly considered a conventional thinker on this topic.


I was wondering when the question would get expanded.

Who you are killing, under what circumstances is important. I think most would agree killing someone trying to do the same to you, or a person incapable of protecting themselves (ex child) is not a sin. Might even say it rises to a level of duty. Then the scale slides down the slippery slope from there.

Same to a lesser degree with suicide. If you are on fire and jump out the window to end it...don't really see a sin there and doubt most would. You are upset, but could get help, could get better, or at least try to, might be a sin there.

And for the sake of neutrality here I'll define my own term. Sin: wasting a positive potential or opportunity. .... and let's not get too deep on to what "positive" is.



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24 Dec 2011, 2:40 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
krazykat wrote:
All sins are equally nasty, but suicide is actually the BIGGER sin.
With murder you will get punished in this life and still have a chance to repent.
With suicide you murder yourself with no chance to repent and will be punished eternally.

People just react differently because suicide results from despair while murder is a repulsive symptom of extreme hate.



Why the hell would anyone want to worship a god who dooms people who simply had too much to handle to eternal punishment because they got to the point where suicide seemed to be the only way to kill the pain? that is my question......glad I don't belive in sin not that I am planning a suicide attempt but I think that is a horrible thing to belive.


A lot of humans are loathsome knuckle-dragging monsters who get a hard-on kicking others when they're down and thus they invented this wonderful God in their very own image. How do some Christians honestly believe this s**t? It's as if life didn't already suck enough, if in a last fit of desperation you reach for the get-out-of-jail-free card, BAM... eternal torture for you. Come on. Seems more likely evolutionary pressure bred up the proclivity for leaders to fear-monger the peasant worker-bees into line through religion. The emperor couldn't get his palace built if all the slaves suddenly decided to off themselves. No can do.



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24 Dec 2011, 3:09 am

MikeB2of10 wrote:
And for the sake of neutrality here I'll define my own term. Sin: wasting a positive potential or opportunity. .... and let's not get too deep on to what "positive" is.


I don't think you should try and re-define a word that already has a meaning. Even if the actual meaning to that particular word has been defined and redefined from Abrahamic cult to cult that its original meaning has been long lost or is so vague in definition that it is meaningless. Same with the term 'god'. Ask one person who or what god is, and you'll get as many differing answers are there are humans on the planet. These words have no clear operational definition and should be scrapped, IMO.



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24 Dec 2011, 8:11 am

Asp-Z wrote:
If a person does not wish to continue their own life, why should it be anyone else's business to judge them for it?

It causes emotional distress to those that care about them, therefore some people consider it a selfish act.



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24 Dec 2011, 11:19 am

Burzum wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
If a person does not wish to continue their own life, why should it be anyone else's business to judge them for it?

It causes emotional distress to those that care about them, therefore some people consider it a selfish act.


Yes and what about the emotional distress the person who commited suicide was in, people seem to like forgetting about that part. Not to mention it is also very possible to feel everyone would be better off if you where dead when you're suicidal so I guess I don't see what is so selfish about it..........by that standard is it not also selfish that others would want the suicidal individual to keep going regardless of how much pain they are in just so they won't be sad when the individual commits suicide?


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24 Dec 2011, 11:56 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
I would say it depends on who's getting murdered, but I'm not exactly considered a conventional thinker on this topic.
If there is good reason it's not murder.

That depends on who gets to decide if a reason is "good".

Death Row is full of people who believe they had a good reason for killing someone.



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24 Dec 2011, 12:01 pm

Fnord wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
I would say it depends on who's getting murdered, but I'm not exactly considered a conventional thinker on this topic.
If there is good reason it's not murder.

That depends on who gets to decide if a reason is "good".

Death Row is full of people who believe they had a good reason for killing someone.


Ok if someone is trying to kill me and I kill them in self defence........I say that is a valid reason for me to have killed them. Or say like I catch someone causing harm to someone I care about....like raping them and I end up killin them trying to defend that person. I think killing should be a last resort...........and that killing is not always murder. Murder is if you kill someone without any proper reason........such as you don't like them, or they rubbed you the wrong way at the grocery store.


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24 Dec 2011, 12:27 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
I would say it depends on who's getting murdered, but I'm not exactly considered a conventional thinker on this topic.
If there is good reason it's not murder.

That depends on who gets to decide if a reason is "good".

Death Row is full of people who believe they had a good reason for killing someone.


Ok if someone is trying to kill me and I kill them in self defence........I say that is a valid reason for me to have killed them. Or say like I catch someone causing harm to someone I care about....like raping them and I end up killin them trying to defend that person. I think killing should be a last resort...........and that killing is not always murder. Murder is if you kill someone without any proper reason........such as you don't like them, or they rubbed you the wrong way at the grocery store.


Even if you have a proper reason, unless your life is in actual danger at the time of the murder, then it's murder. Let's use a very heinous example here. Say that your child was raped and beaten by someone. Of course hunting them down and killing them is something every parent would want to do, but unless the parent walked in during the commission of the raping or beating of the child and then in the process of trying to stop it they inadverdantly killed the person that wouldn't be considered murder. However, if the parent hunts them down and kills them after the fact, when the child is no longer in danger, then it is murder.

Murder requires intent. Manslaughter does not. You might get charged with manslaughter if you killed a person in self defense, depending on the particular grand jury.


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24 Dec 2011, 12:29 pm

Burzum wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
If a person does not wish to continue their own life, why should it be anyone else's business to judge them for it?

It causes emotional distress to those that care about them, therefore some people consider it a selfish act.


Doesn't matter, they'll be upset for a bit but eventually get over it, just as if the person had died naturally, as all people do eventually anyway. The person who committed suicide was evidently under a lot more emotional distress than their friends and family or they wouldn't have committed suicide.



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24 Dec 2011, 12:49 pm

Regarding the original question, yes, though both are just as bad as each other with the effects on people around them.


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24 Dec 2011, 1:02 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
Burzum wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
If a person does not wish to continue their own life, why should it be anyone else's business to judge them for it?

It causes emotional distress to those that care about them, therefore some people consider it a selfish act.


Doesn't matter, they'll be upset for a bit but eventually get over it, just as if the person had died naturally, as all people do eventually anyway. The person who committed suicide was evidently under a lot more emotional distress than their friends and family or they wouldn't have committed suicide.


That's true that they will get over it eventually, but it's a very hard time emotionally. Twenty years ago a guy I was close friends with killed himself. It was because of emotional problems he had for a long time, depression etc, plus his mother was constantly on him because he was gay. She was very religious and it offended her that he wasn't exactly how she wanted him to be.

After he died, I beat myself up emotionally for over a year, obsessing on what if anything I could have done to help. I replayed our last phone conversation in my mind many times, but he didn't give anyone any clue at all about what he was about to do.

Not too long ago, a young man who was friends with my kids and a regular guest at our house died in a car wreck. That was very hard as well, but there isn't that element of guilt for survivors involved.

I think too many people obsess over "what could I have done to help?" when they were given many opportunities to help while the person was alive, they just didn't think the person would take it that far.


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Asp-Z
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24 Dec 2011, 1:04 pm

OliveOilMom wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
Burzum wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
If a person does not wish to continue their own life, why should it be anyone else's business to judge them for it?

It causes emotional distress to those that care about them, therefore some people consider it a selfish act.


Doesn't matter, they'll be upset for a bit but eventually get over it, just as if the person had died naturally, as all people do eventually anyway. The person who committed suicide was evidently under a lot more emotional distress than their friends and family or they wouldn't have committed suicide.


That's true that they will get over it eventually, but it's a very hard time emotionally. Twenty years ago a guy I was close friends with killed himself. It was because of emotional problems he had for a long time, depression etc, plus his mother was constantly on him because he was gay. She was very religious and it offended her that he wasn't exactly how she wanted him to be.

After he died, I beat myself up emotionally for over a year, obsessing on what if anything I could have done to help. I replayed our last phone conversation in my mind many times, but he didn't give anyone any clue at all about what he was about to do.

Not too long ago, a young man who was friends with my kids and a regular guest at our house died in a car wreck. That was very hard as well, but there isn't that element of guilt for survivors involved.

I think too many people obsess over "what could I have done to help?" when they were given many opportunities to help while the person was alive, they just didn't think the person would take it that far.


You make a very good point - if you're concerned about someone's depressed state, do something about it while they're still here rather than waiting until it's too late.



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24 Dec 2011, 1:14 pm

Very true Asp-Z, but many times a person's friends don't know they are near that point. My friend had attempted suicide in his early 20s and late teens several times. He had mentioned many times that he would never do that again. We were very close friends and I was always supportive of him, and he could and did talk to me at times about being upset, but he never gave anyone any indication that he was going to commit suicide.

I had actually made plans with him the night he did that, but had to cancel. He was understanding and we both set a time to get together the next week, and I even told him to stop by later that night around 11, after I was done with family obligations. He said he might and might rent a movie to bring. He had gotten a haircut that day and new guitar strings, and seemed fairly upbeat. I never knew he was depressed at that time.

I'm sure that my cancelling plans didn't cause it, but for a long time I felt that if I hadn't cancelled them he might have been hanging out with us and distracted so he wouldn't have done that. I realize now that if he had truly planned to kill himself, he would have done it just as easily later that night. Part of me thinks maybe he would have talked to me about how he was feeling, because we were very close and talked about everything to each other.

Then I went through the anger phase. I felt very betrayed by him for doing that. I felt "how could he not tell me what he was feeling, we shared everything with each other!" After much time passed, I realized that some things are too personal even for the best of friends to tell. Maybe he really wanted to die and was afraid I would talk him out of it or prevent it somehow. I don't know. I'll never know. It's the never being able to know for sure that's the hardest part of the whole thing.


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24 Dec 2011, 1:29 pm

OliveOilMom wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
I would say it depends on who's getting murdered, but I'm not exactly considered a conventional thinker on this topic.
If there is good reason it's not murder.

That depends on who gets to decide if a reason is "good".

Death Row is full of people who believe they had a good reason for killing someone.


Ok if someone is trying to kill me and I kill them in self defence........I say that is a valid reason for me to have killed them. Or say like I catch someone causing harm to someone I care about....like raping them and I end up killin them trying to defend that person. I think killing should be a last resort...........and that killing is not always murder. Murder is if you kill someone without any proper reason........such as you don't like them, or they rubbed you the wrong way at the grocery store.


Even if you have a proper reason, unless your life is in actual danger at the time of the murder, then it's murder. Let's use a very heinous example here. Say that your child was raped and beaten by someone. Of course hunting them down and killing them is something every parent would want to do, but unless the parent walked in during the commission of the raping or beating of the child and then in the process of trying to stop it they inadverdantly killed the person that wouldn't be considered murder. However, if the parent hunts them down and kills them after the fact, when the child is no longer in danger, then it is murder.

Murder requires intent. Manslaughter does not. You might get charged with manslaughter if you killed a person in self defense, depending on the particular grand jury.


I think it would be perfectly ok for the parent to go kill that sick f**k......and would not see it as murder, especially if there was a chance they could be hurting other children or hurt that parents child again in the future. In psychology class we where actually presented with a case like that........where a mother shot this guy who was molesting her kid in the courtroom, in the past he had gotten arrested and then released so her kid and other kids where at risk so I imagine she did not want to take chances.

So yeah the point was if she could get off on insanity or not, which I figure she could because from her perspective there was nothing 'wrong' with what she did.......and you have to be aware what you are doing is wrong to be considered 'sane' by legal standards. I feel like she should have been given a reward for doing such a great service to the community...not gotten off but still institutionalized due to her mental state. I mean the guy could have gotten out again and hurt her kid and more kids I might have done the same if I was in that situation.


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24 Dec 2011, 2:03 pm

OliveOilMom wrote:
Very true Asp-Z, but many times a person's friends don't know they are near that point. My friend had attempted suicide in his early 20s and late teens several times. He had mentioned many times that he would never do that again. We were very close friends and I was always supportive of him, and he could and did talk to me at times about being upset, but he never gave anyone any indication that he was going to commit suicide.

I had actually made plans with him the night he did that, but had to cancel. He was understanding and we both set a time to get together the next week, and I even told him to stop by later that night around 11, after I was done with family obligations. He said he might and might rent a movie to bring. He had gotten a haircut that day and new guitar strings, and seemed fairly upbeat. I never knew he was depressed at that time.

I'm sure that my cancelling plans didn't cause it, but for a long time I felt that if I hadn't cancelled them he might have been hanging out with us and distracted so he wouldn't have done that. I realize now that if he had truly planned to kill himself, he would have done it just as easily later that night. Part of me thinks maybe he would have talked to me about how he was feeling, because we were very close and talked about everything to each other.

Then I went through the anger phase. I felt very betrayed by him for doing that. I felt "how could he not tell me what he was feeling, we shared everything with each other!" After much time passed, I realized that some things are too personal even for the best of friends to tell. Maybe he really wanted to die and was afraid I would talk him out of it or prevent it somehow. I don't know. I'll never know. It's the never being able to know for sure that's the hardest part of the whole thing.


That's also very true - sometimes it's not obvious that someone's depressed. Since this is the haven, I have no problem admitting that I myself am quite depressed, yet to most people I know in real life I seem perfectly happy for the most part.

Of course, it's wrong to beat yourself up about it - someone who's going to kill themselves certainly wouldn't be put off by having plans on a particular day, and these things are very complicated, you shouldn't take it personally that he didn't tell you either, even though you were close.

Sorry if any of this made you feel worse, I'm very bad at this kind of this thing, emotions aren't in my nature. But certainly do know that nothing was your fault, and it sounds like you did the best you could in the situation.