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FlanMaster
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16 Jul 2013, 9:18 pm

I have an interesting question that I think is on topic.
disclaimer:. I personally believe science supports intelligent design and that history supports Christ, but I personally believe that most in this era who claim to be christian are in fact deceiving themselves or lying.

ASSUMPTIONS :

the o. p. is discussing essentially the judeocristiana views of God
the books called the bible are 100% correct and accurate.
the literalist view of creation/evolution time-line is correct (7 days creation, 7000 to 10,000 years earth existence)

precursor factual assertions that you can verify yourself if you care :

everyone is born condemned to hell.
age of accountability and parental coverage are irrelevant to this post
the Average lifespan is 80 years or so.


argument/question

it is written that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. thus we are dealing with a guilty until pardoned system of justice, that was created and initiated by God.

by that which is written we find that only those who hear, believe, then never doubt have a chance to be "saved" (from the condemnation that was required by God that we were born into without choice nor chance), because "whosoever sets his hand to the plow and looks back is unfit for the kingdom of heaven".
it takes the average person roughly 16 years to become intelligent enough to understand the full ramifications of the "guilty until pardoned" justice system. many don't hear "the truth" until adulthood, and some not at all. no where is it written that those who "have not heard" have any chance at all. and some who were "born into the truth" will never have a chance "it is written that HE hated Esau from the womb".

So under this system of judgment, who stands a chance? both Christ and "apostle Paul" say that if we ever sin again after "accepting Christ" then we are rejected. "seeing as how you crucify Christ again". so any human that entertains "sinful sexual thoughts" or daydreams about their annoying supervisor/coworker being fired, or intentionally exceeds the posted speed limit, or takes a pen home from work, after they have heard and accepted "the truth" will all "burn in hell" or be "snuffed out" (eternal darkness). any human, regardless of age, that never heard or otherwise never became convinced of "the truth" will either "burn in hell" or be "snuffed out"

if we are lucky enough to both make it to intellectual capacity AND "hear the truth", we have maybe 1 to 64 years to study a claim and make a decision that affects us for "eternity", i. e. trillions of years and more, and that is only if God didn't start hating us while we were in útero.

It is no small wonder that famous atheists claim that the judeocristiana God of "the bible" is maniacal, hateful, etc. etc. etc. by human standards, The God depicted in the bible to an observant "outsider" is exactly that and more. pseudo-christians end up creatively explaining things and written accounts that don't support their misconceptions. God really didn't let the man sacrifice his daughter after she was the first to come out of his house to greet him when he returned from war. God really didn't tolerate sexual discrimination in the "old testament", even though the only reason he used a female "judge" was to humiliate the men of that day who refused to listen to God and follow Him (did not God already tell you....) (the apostle Paul wouldn't even tolerate a woman asking a question in church <let her keep silent until she gets home then ask her husband >).

Yes, according to what is written in the books termed the bible, God is judgmental, mean cruel uncaring, etc. etc. according to OUR standards

We presume too much about God

edit :
maybe, like the religious authorities of era of Christ, most today have completely misunderstood the message.


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GregCav
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17 Jul 2013, 12:23 am

FlanMaster, you're touching on many subjects there, any one could take up several sermons and involve many Biblical references. I'll quickly go through your list without references (I'm at work and it's smoko, I don't have time to go through thoroughly).

7 days of creation is generaly accepted as refering to 7,000 years of life on earth untill judgement sits (aka the end). Not everyone accepts this interpretation, but it's quite common.

Being saved:

Under the Old Testiment, the Jews had to sacrafice animals to purify themselves. These were precursor acts representing Chist's sacrific on the cross. So even under the Old Testiment, Christ was the savour.

Under the New Testiment, being saved is open for everyone on earth. All you have to do is accept Christ as dieing on the cross in place of yourself. And accept that he is the first begotten son of God. He was effectively adopted by God via declaration. (I can't find the reference, but it was when Jesus was first baptised in water - the river).



AspE
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17 Jul 2013, 11:23 am

GregCav wrote:
7 days of creation is generaly accepted as refering to 7,000 years of life on earth untill judgement sits (aka the end).

Then God is a liar and I can't trust anything in there.



FlanMaster
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17 Jul 2013, 11:51 am

@gregcav

You are debating preset conditions. regardless of whether it is 7 days or 7,000 years is essentially irrelavent for the most part.

But that brings to light the comment by AspE. If everything is relative or open to interpretation, then it all becomes a big series of lies. We have to have clearly established principles that cannot be refuted or "interpreted" to suit either advocate or proponent. Elsewise it becomes no different than any other religion.

While salvation is "open to everyone" it is clearly, according to that which is written, it's a "one shot deal", if you mess up once, you lose out, If you take too long to determine that it is the correct religion, you lose out, etc. etc. etc. Again, if you start "interpreting" things, then it all becomes one big lie. Either we can trust what is written or we can't. When you give leadway for "needing to correctly interpret" then you give too many opportunites for corruption and those who would take advantage of the poor and the weak.


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GregCav
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17 Jul 2013, 5:43 pm

It's easy to get disillusioned. The bible is a big book and there is a lot of substance in it.

Where the bible uses symbology, elsewhere in the bible is an explanation of what the symbology is. This is where study and long term understanding comes in. The more you study, the more you understand. It is all in there, but it takes some digging.

Therefore you must accept that there is no way someone can answer simple questions on a bulletin board with simple answers. The bible has layers of information. The more you understand within the book, the more you discover.



AspE
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18 Jul 2013, 12:10 pm

GregCav wrote:
It's easy to get disillusioned. The bible is a big book and there is a lot of substance in it.

Where the bible uses symbology, elsewhere in the bible is an explanation of what the symbology is. This is where study and long term understanding comes in. The more you study, the more you understand. It is all in there, but it takes some digging.

Therefore you must accept that there is no way someone can answer simple questions on a bulletin board with simple answers. The bible has layers of information. The more you understand within the book, the more you discover.

The more I read it, the more I discover that it's a collection of ignorance and superstition that no one should follow.



FlanMaster
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18 Jul 2013, 4:19 pm

I am not a novice in "bible study". I have been reading and studying since I was a child. the o. p. is correct, the God written of in the "bible" is one that is quick to judge and condemn, quick to reject, selective and very choosy (predestined, preordained, unfit, abomination, no space for repentance, etc. etc. etc.)
the biggest problem is how pseudo-christians "interpret" said symbols and metaphors, and even what is or is not metaphor/symbology. There is no validation for many "traditions of men" being taught as doctrine in this era. the few that do seem to have validity are usually derived from "interpretation". God is the judge, jury, and executioner of the justice system created by God.


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Bonnie, The Boxer, ~2005/2006 - October 26th 2013
We love you always Bonnie. Bless God as you have blessed us.