The Gender discussions on L&D are harming me

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I think it's harder, though not impossible, for men to comprehend the impact of misogyny in all its forms and the impact these assaults have on women's well being, why and how they have an impact. We have had MRAs here spouting nonsense that rape by men hardly ever happens and they can't see why that would be offensive. Most male members can, because that's an obvious attack on the wellbeing of women victims and survivors. However a lot of the attacks are not so blatant, though they are still accumulative and insidious, and I think that's what the OP is on about.

Men today are not misogynist. Even men who complain aren't participating in misogyny. That term seems to be thrown around only for the same reason people throw around terms like "racist" or "bigot".

Just because someone doesn't think of an alternative to what you believe or if somebody calls it a problem doesn't mean they are ISIS.

Are you seriously trying to claim that sexism against women no longer exists? Seriously? Are you one of those guys who claims that racism is over now too since America elected a (half) black president?

This sounds a lot like wilful obtuseness to me.

I think it needs to be taken to another thread. I admit I made that mistake of going overboard making that original argument on this thread.

What does this mean? You no longer agree with your own OP or the comment you just made that I was responding to? I'm confused.

Always good to see when members concede mistakes after reflecting more on any particular issue.

Is that what happened? I think I am having trouble with his language use and just am not following him, is English not his first language? I don't mean to offend anyone, I just am genuinely confused by what he posted and don't understand his comments.

While it is not as misogynistic as it once was (I believe some of the worst offenders have been banned) I know it has turned a number of women away from WP permanently. A common theme is the taking of gender stereotypes to extremes and binaries which do not reflect what is really happening in the real world. In any event, I doubt the forum has ever really helped anyone get a date or start a healthy relationship. Those who seem to benefit most from it seem to be those who are already in relationships who are just asking for different perspectives on certain situations or people who think their spouse or partner is on the spectrum and are looking for some insight and direction.

Personally I think it should be removed and replaced with three other things.
1. A "relationships" forum and threads should only be started by those already in relationships.

2. An "I like to complain that the world does not abide by my rules" link that redirects to the rants and raves section of craigslist.

3. An "I hate the opposite sex" link that redirects to information on how to join the clergy, because one can't have a romantic relationship with someone from the demographic they hate, so they might as well become a priest or monk or nun.

It would be very easy for me to provide examples of the misogyny that I and other women have been subjected to, both here on WP and elsewhere, if you would care to see them.

Certainly a man merely complaining about gender roles or certain frustrations with dating or relationships is not, by default, a misogynist, and perhaps you are not a misogynist but there are still men who are.

Chronos, can you still give us direct examples of what misogyny your talking about?

And, guys who come here to vent about certain frustrations or gender stereotypes/double standards are replied to in a way that comes off as thinking that guy must be hostile to the opposite gender anyway. That's what I believed.

Just as casually as you insist on characterizing any man who talks about his failure to get romantic or sexual relationships as a misogynist, I’m tempted to resort to what you probably consider a gender stereotype and conclude women are turned away because by admitting you’re a foreveralone, you’re letting them know they should dislike you, and they promptly comply.



Or, in less hostile terms, we’re trying to make sense of the world from what little we know about it, like everyone else. Also, remember we’re autistic. I for one am usually looking for new insight about any of the infinitely many parts of reality I’m missing, but apparently can’t help coming across like I think I already know everything and am lecturing everyone else on my current understanding of the world as if it were absolute truth set in stone.



Maybe we can’t be helped, but I’d rather learn something than completely forget that part of life exists.



In fact, I’ve long been under the impression that most people are more or less willing to help those who are already in relationships, while those who have never gotten one are shunned because they have no business being in one. Resorting again to what you probably call a stereotype, I think this behavior makes sense as an evolutionary strategy: those on the process of being weeded out of the gene pool should be left to be weeded out, not helped to pass along their genes anyway, since the species is most likely better off without them.



So you definitely think that those who aren’t benefitting from the “Love and Dating” forum—or, worse, aren’t benefitting enough in your view—should be denied a chance to benefit in the future once and for all, and, to add insult to injury, you confirm your unwillingness to see them as anything other than misogynists.

I guess it feels good to think the world is inherently fair, so those not enjoying themselves must surely have done something nasty to deserve it. I hope you’re not surprised if you find yourself at some point on the receiving end of this kind of narrative.

What your suggesting is to exile most of the male autistics from wrong planet. Most autistic males here don’t have relationships. Most autistics who have relationships are happy and don’t come to wrong planet. The forum is full of lonely men and nt women who come to complain about or seek advice for their autistic bf.

Should the rest of wrong plant also just be for successful aspies?

Has the forum helped you get a date or start a relationship Sly?

Let's add number 4:

A place where those that are single against their own will can start threads to ask for advice in a sivilized manner. No venting and empty complaining allowed (that's for personal diaries and perhaps haven?), just a place for people who look for advice. In fact, a separate area just for venting/complaining where you don't even look for solutions might fix some problems. Those who don't want to read about other people venting just wouldn't go there. And since only people who are already in relationships would be allowed to start topics in section 1, it'd be fair that only singles would get to start topics in section 4. Sounds fair, no?

Oh and by the way, Chronos's list wouldn't just leave single men without a place for talking about relationships, it'd also leave single women without one, so it's not unfair towards men. Yes, Sly, you and some men would be left out, but so would I and some other women here. So no, it's not an attack against men. If we want to call it an attack on some group, it would be singles and their gender would be irrelevant.

Sure. Here are examples of attacks on women, negative generalizations of women, and blatant misogyny.

All Women Are Demons From Hell That Like To Mess With Men His frustration is understandable but his perspective expressed in the subject of his post is misogynistic, as are some of the replies to his post, such as the one claiming that women don't like nice guys and instructing him to treat women poorly.

ATTENTION ALL B*****S (WOMEN)! Got banned fast and probably a troll but attacking women like that is still misogyny.

"Rant about loneliness" Summary of thread: Poster is upset that only girls he considers unattractive are interested in him and then goes on to state, among other things, "I think ALL women are superficial hypocrites", to which another poster replies "I'm with you there. To hell with the lot of 'em. It's all about power. At this point in our lives, they've got it, but few have any real ambition, or mind for anything beyond shopping, and spending money and hanging out with girlfriends to talk about pointless, banal trivialities. Just wait. We're smarter, more driven, better than them. Our time will come when WE have the power, and they can finally get a taste of their own medicine when we pick and choose and THEY're the ones getting rejected. They can only skate by so long on their looks, and once those go, they've got nothing. "

Irrational Women OP thinks women are "irrational, subjective and hyperemotional".

The Irrational Standards Women Have Toward Men OP claims women have "irrational" standards are generalize women as liars....but he doesn't "want to sound like a "woman hater" or anything.

Male Disposability In Life & Dating One poster states "all the greatest things ever created throughout human history, have been creations of men. Why do show so little regard for your fellow men? Men ARE smarter, more creative, more artistic than women, that's simply a fact. Many men have sacrificed their lives to save others, how dare you say men have less heart in what they do." While the poster was responding to a post by another (male) user which he likely found misandristic, he chose to refute that poster's claims by attacking women.

Why Are Men Better At Chess Than Women? Another thread with "men are smarter than women" claims.

It Seems To Me That Most Hot Women In The US Are Stuck Up. Unprovoked attack on American woman by European guy. He wants a hot woman but thinks most hot American women are "stuck up snobs". BUT he doesn't want to generalize and is "not discriminating US girls or citizens in general, I'm not someone who discriminates people".

Misogyny - Honest misogynist. Hates females because they won't have sex with him.

Some notes here:

1. Some of the posts in these examples are old. It's not that more recent instances exist, but rather that there is a problem with the way the search results are displayed, such that the links to the additional search result pages gets cut off. It doesn't really matter thought because these were instances of misogyny and sexism that female members were subjected to and while instances have dropped on WP, they have grown elsewhere on the internet. I'm almost 40 and an early adopter of the internet and believe it or not, misogyny has increased both on the internet and offline since I was in my 20s.

2. I'm only sharing examples on WP as they tend to be fairly mild compared to the misogyny elsewhere, which ranges the spectrum from disrespectful comments that seek to devalue a women's achievements and contributions to out right threats of sexual assault, and I will not bring that level of toxicity into this forum out of respect for the women affected by it.

3. While some of the misogyny and sexism on WP is blatant, most tends to take the more subtle form of resentful or bitter proclamations that women on the spectrum have it easier in some respect, or that women have unreasonable standards, or broad generalizations that characterize women as a whole as gold diggers, jerk lovers, or superficial.

This is supposed to be a support forum for people on the spectrum and girls and women who come here are coming in from a world that is often hostile to them and ignores their struggles as a person on the spectrum, and should not be met with much the same hostility here, but unfortunately many were.

Here are some of their words on the matter:

The Treatment Of Women On Wrongplanet - By a Veteran member.

"as some of you may have noticed, i've been taking a bit of a break from posting on wrongplanet the last few days. there is good reason for that, and i'd like to share it now....

the treatment of women on this site is atrocious. i can't count the number of times i have seen statements about women (i.e. "women are x" or "all women do y") go unchallenged, that would never be left up if the same statement were made about any other group of humans (i.e. "black people are x" or "all jews do y").... "

Subtle And Blatant Misogyny - She doesn't want to call anyone person out because she is on good terms with people but...

"...I see at least a few posters here who seem to really loathe women, and while none of them have EVER said anything nasty or hostile to me, it makes me feel like I have to be careful not to confront what they're saying. That's pretty much the opposite of how I want my life to be and it used to be a non-issue, but now I've got this urge to confront certain ideas or language whenever I see it, and I think that would be problematic. There are several girls I've connected with on the WP FB groups who left for similar reasons or just never got involved, because they too saw a lot of the things I've seen here.

I'm not leaving or anything but I feel like I was relying on this place as a source of support and now I'm pulling away and don't really know how to give support or find it here.... "

From those who left WP...

https://www.autismforums.com/threads/i-like-this-site-better-than-wrongplanet-net.15524/

"I was upset by all the unchecked misogyny on wrongplanet, it made me very uneasy. This forum is so awesome and friendly!"

From another member/former member, who I won't link to because she has been subject to a bullying crusade.

"Every autism group I’ve been involved in as an adult (online as well as in person) is tainted by the presence of MRA types. It’s hard for me not to associate autism with being an MRA as*hole, on some level, because of how sites like the wrong planet one have been completely overrun with MRAs. Then I remember that even in the groups exclusively for women on the spectrum there are similar views that come up, bitter rants about how women are just the goddamn worst because… misogyny is everywhere. "

A discussion about the site on a different ASD site. -

"I admit, I thought wrongplanet was okay at first.... then I kept going to the love and dating section. There's a lot of misogyny coming from the users...."

For those with Asperger's: what's so great about the site wrongplanet.net? - She get's quite mean about it in my opinion but at the time, there were some rather mean people here, who I believe are now banned.

"It wasn't exactly a jolly place back when I was going there three years ago, which seems to be when most of us packed up and left, but now it just seems like a cesspool of pathetic aspie men or self-diagnosed men who are likely not autistic at all. I specify men as frankly I don't think any self-respecting woman would be able to last five minutes there, that's not to say that all autistic men are misogynists but it seems fake-aspies and some autistic men fail on the dating scene and in places like WP are allowed to cultivate such negativity towards certain groups that it makes it a misogynistic, anti-NT, racist, ***-hole convention.

Basically the only people who go there now are the same sort of people who go on MRA forums, they go there to complain and ***** about other people who they blame for their being losers."

We will, however give credit to the majority of men here who have often stood up for female members in the face of misogyny. Their supportive posts of female members far out number hateful and sexist posts from misogynistic members (and former members), but most females, at some point in their life, will be subjected to misogyny.

It's fine for a man to express his frustrations with dating but there are ways to do it without attacking the sex he is attempting to date, and if he cannot manage that, then yes, he is a misogynist.

Let me show you the difference between expressing frustrations and attacking the opposite sex.

"I find it really upsetting and discouraging that the men I want to date won't date me because they think I'm too old or not pretty enough" Here specific men are being talked about...the one's the person wants to date, and the reason for their rejection of the individual is known.

"Men have irrational and unreasonable standards. They are shallow pigs who only want to date young 20 year olds and gold diggers". This statement is misandristic. It constitutes an attack on men because calling men irrational or unreasonable in their dating preferences implies a sense of entitlement to dictate what the he wants or needs in a relationship. Saying they are shallow pigs who only want to date 20 year olds and gold diggers unfairly mischaracterizes, and thus ignores all of the men who don't care if she's not 20 and who actually don't want to date a gold digger.

Last edited by Chronos on 22 Apr 2018, 8:21 am, edited 4 times in total.

Where have I insisted on "characterizing any man who talks about his failure to get romantic or sexual relationships as a misogynist"? Please cite any post of mine you are thinking of that supports your assertion against me.



Quite possibly but a wrong conclusion is a wrong conclusion and a misogynistic conclusion is a misogynistic conclusion.



Regardless of philosophical ideologies or observations on evolutionary fitness, rather than the Love and Dating forum being a place where those struggling to get into relationships are constructive with the advice they have been given, it seems to be a place where they waste time they could be out improving themselves and their social skills and exercising them in the real world where they are most likely to find a relationship, they spend it venting and complaining about the same things over and over and The Haven would likely be a more appropriate place for them, as it seems their needs are more consistent with the need for emotional support and a place to vent frustrations.



I don't see how you come to any of those conclusions. The links I propose merely give the person more categories which might fit their needs better, and they choose which category is appropriate for them. If you would also like a "relationship forming advice" forum, that would be fine as well, however I do not think it should be used to rant or vent. I believe those posts belong in The Haven.



I wouldn't know how it feels to think the world is inherently fair. I suspect, however, that for some reason, you think I do, despite my previous posts indicating otherwise.