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adromedanblackhole
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11 Oct 2020, 7:11 pm

Juliette wrote:
There was a groundbreaking study on this quite a few years back that suggests that we don’t lack empathy, that we actually feel others’ emotions too intensely...

https://www.thestar.com/life/health_wellness/diseases_cures/2009/05/14/aspergers_theory_does_aboutface.html

Yes I have seen this. For yourself, do you ever feel like you've become a bit jaded by the cruelty of the world where you probably could come across like a person lacking empathy? I do feel like the broader world has taught me not to care.

Just to draw everyone's attention to the rules for The Haven forum: viewtopic.php?t=297515
Please have a read before commenting
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Last edited by adromedanblackhole on 11 Oct 2020, 9:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Jiheisho
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11 Oct 2020, 7:13 pm

I do not process emotions like an NT and tend to have a different response empathically from NTs. I also have a difficult time knowing what I feel. Neither of these things are uncommon with autism.

But how is empathy measured? I think I feel empathy quite acutely. But how do I know the degree compared with an NT or anyone?

Me saying something is not really proof of anything except how I describe what I think is what is discussed--problems of single case samples.



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11 Oct 2020, 7:15 pm

adromedanblackhole wrote:
I have a suspicion that others will be able to relate:

I consider myself an incredibly sensitive and empathic person. However, I have found this is absolutely not the case for the outside world. These traits are ravaged upon like weaknesses. I have a general picture of humanity as a apex predator that enjoys preying on what it perceives as weak, and traits like kindness and having higher sensitivities registers to them as weakness. It is hard to feel empathy for something that has demonstrated a proclivity towards feeding on you. It is hard to feel empathy for a person who is only talking to you to gain something from the conversation that they can then mock you when you're not around. It is hard to feel empathy for people who seem to show no hesitation in resorting to cruelty with very little provocation.

I get tired of the description that HFA people have low empathy. No, we're just a little jaded dealing with the broader population who is so freely cruel to us.

May I ask for clarification? 8)



Last edited by Pepe on 11 Oct 2020, 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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11 Oct 2020, 7:19 pm

Thank you , am fearing this situation may not get a lot better in the immediate future . But that is just repeating the obvious , I do fight to try to keep a positive outlook , regardless .. Am in that , the naïveté I seem to have in general , as a normal way of life , has preserved me most of my life . Looking at the world of Nature , birds. Clouds and the sort have helped me as well.


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AuroraBorealisGazer
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11 Oct 2020, 7:26 pm

Juliette wrote:
There was a groundbreaking study on this quite a few years back that suggests that we don’t lack empathy, that we actually feel others’ emotions too intensely...

https://www.thestar.com/life/health_wellness/diseases_cures/2009/05/14/aspergers_theory_does_aboutface.html


Thank you Juliette, this was a good article. I particularly related to this line:

Quote:
Studies have found that when people are overwhelmed by empathetic feelings, they tend to pull back. When someone else's pain affects you deeply, it can be hard to reach out rather than turn away.

For people with autism spectrum disorder, these empathetic feelings might be so intense that they withdraw in a way that appears cold or uncaring.


Do we know if there is a general consensus among the psychiatric community and ASD advocacy groups on this? I get the impression there is not a consensus, which has resulted in the perpetuation of this myth.



adromedanblackhole
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11 Oct 2020, 7:27 pm

Pepe wrote:
adromedanblackhole wrote:
I have a suspicion that others will be able to relate:

I consider myself an incredibly sensitive and empathic person. However, I have found this is absolutely not the case for the outside world. These traits are ravaged upon like weaknesses. I have a general picture of humanity as a apex predator that enjoys preying on what it perceives as weak, and traits like kindness and having higher sensitivities registers to them as weakness. It is hard to feel empathy for something that has demonstrated a proclivity towards feeding on you. It is hard to feel empathy for a person who is only talking to you to gain something from the conversation that they can then mock you when you're not around. It is hard to feel empathy for people who seem to show no hesitation in resorting to cruelty with very little provocation.

I get tired of the description that HFA people have low empathy. No, we're just a little jaded dealing with the broader population who is so freely cruel to us.


So, what proportion of allistic society do you believe act like "Apex Predators"? 8)

I see this as the basic operating system that dictates social dynamics. They vie for dominance and social standing within a group and shun or exclude what they perceive as its weakest member.



adromedanblackhole
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11 Oct 2020, 7:34 pm

Jakki wrote:
Thank you , am fearing this situation may not get a lot better in the immediate future . But that is just repeating the obvious , I do fight to try to keep a positive outlook , regardless .. Am in that , the naïveté I seem to have in general , as a normal way of life , has preserved me most of my life . Looking at the world of Nature , birds. Clouds and the sort have helped me as well.

I know what you mean. I prefer animals to people. I find it uncomfortable how effortless it is for collectives I'm forced to be in to almost intuitively arrange themselves towards me in a position that makes me feel othered and not like the rest. I feel like, well if people were a little nicer maybe I'd enjoy spending time with them but that is rarely if ever the case. Then to say that it is we who lack empathy when maybe we just lack the desire to be constantly bombarded with negativity as if this were comfortable or normal.



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11 Oct 2020, 7:35 pm

AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
Do we know if there is a general consensus among the psychiatric community and ASD advocacy groups on this? I get the impression there is not a consensus, which has resulted in the perpetuation of this myth.


I am extremely new to any autism studies or even interacting with people in the psychological world as an autistic person, but anecdotally, I am seeing a sea change on that idea. I read a recently-written/published book about how autism manifests in women as opposed to men. Although it draws a lot of comparisons, the underlying assumption is that autistic people feel empathy, sometimes so powerfully that it feels like physical pain. I was surprised to read that, given the stereotype. Not because I didn’t know it was true but because it’s so obviously true and so obviously going to look different among different people, even among neurotypical people.



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11 Oct 2020, 7:45 pm

adromedanblackhole wrote:
Pepe wrote:
adromedanblackhole wrote:
I have a suspicion that others will be able to relate:

I consider myself an incredibly sensitive and empathic person. However, I have found this is absolutely not the case for the outside world. These traits are ravaged upon like weaknesses. I have a general picture of humanity as a apex predator that enjoys preying on what it perceives as weak, and traits like kindness and having higher sensitivities registers to them as weakness. It is hard to feel empathy for something that has demonstrated a proclivity towards feeding on you. It is hard to feel empathy for a person who is only talking to you to gain something from the conversation that they can then mock you when you're not around. It is hard to feel empathy for people who seem to show no hesitation in resorting to cruelty with very little provocation.

I get tired of the description that HFA people have low empathy. No, we're just a little jaded dealing with the broader population who is so freely cruel to us.


So, what proportion of allistic society do you believe act like "Apex Predators"? 8)

I see this as the basic operating system that dictates social dynamics. They vie for dominance and social standing within a group and shun or exclude what they perceive as its weakest member.


I am in fear of going off-topic here,
But not everyone would follow "the basic operating system", I would imagine, assuming your model is an accurate representation.
Do you think most, within that system, behave as "Apex Predators"?
Some?
Is it more prevalent in certain situations, such as in the working environment?
Could it be that the situation itself may "switch off" empathy that a person may possess?

I was just curious about your premise.

In regard to "Empathy".
Could you define what *you* mean by that?



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11 Oct 2020, 7:49 pm

Joe90 wrote:
I just hate the way autistic people get denied that they have empathy even if an autistic person outwardly expresses empathy often. It's basically a stereotype. I, for one, have very high empathy. I can recognise moods just by looking at a person's body language and I get deeply affected by it. I also am very sensitive to other people's thoughts and feelings, like my actions are automatically driven around other people's feelings.
For example, if someone left their wallet on a bus and I found it at work (I work at a bus depot), I'd immediately hand it in without even looking inside, but it's not because of "Aspie honesty", it's because I can imagine how the owner of the wallet might be feeling and the thought of the wallet being found and returned to the owner untouched is wonderful. I'd rather personal belongings to be returned to the owners than to steal the belongings, even if I knew I could get away with it.
I remember one time a man came into the office to claim a phone he'd left on a bus, and when we handed it to him he was so thankful and relieved that his phone was returned safely, and I could feel his relief so much that I had tears in my eyes.
But no matter how much I experience these feelings with people regularly, I'll still always be in the "lacking empathy" category just because I have ASD. :cry:

It seems obvious to me that the NT world just has no idea how unbearably cruel it is and the audacity to make claims about other people's empathy is truly incomprehensible.
I guess the crux of the original post is, I find I live in a world that is by and large unsympathetic, hostile, and lacks empathy for me. Of course I will outwardly come across to people who are cruel and callous to me as lacking empathy, why wouldn't I?



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11 Oct 2020, 7:55 pm

adromedanblackhole wrote:
I know what you mean. I prefer animals to people. I find it uncomfortable how effortless it is for collectives I'm forced to be in to almost intuitively arrange themselves towards me in a position that makes me feel othered and not like the rest. I feel like, well if people were a little nicer maybe I'd enjoy spending time with them but that is rarely if ever the case. Then to say that it is we who lack empathy when maybe we just lack the desire to be constantly bombarded with negativity as if this were comfortable or normal.


What I have difficulty with, in regard to allistics, is the patronising attitude, that happens so often, that is generally unwarranted.

If part of empathy involves the ability to predict a person's response to something I say, then I personally lack that depth of empathy. 8)

BTW,
What inspired you to post in The Haven? :scratch:



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11 Oct 2020, 7:55 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
I do not process emotions like an NT and tend to have a different response empathically from NTs. I also have a difficult time knowing what I feel. Neither of these things are uncommon with autism.

But how is empathy measured? I think I feel empathy quite acutely. But how do I know the degree compared with an NT or anyone?

Me saying something is not really proof of anything except how I describe what I think is what is discussed--problems of single case samples.


I agree.

While I have said I think I feel empathy quite strongly, the reality is that without being able to measure how those I'm comparing myself to feel empathy, there is no basis for that belief. There are tests such as Cohen's empathy quotient quiz, but that one is based on his claims about empathy which I find questionable. And in broader terms, I find most psychological tests too riddled with flaws.



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11 Oct 2020, 7:57 pm

Pepe wrote:
I am in fear of going off-topic here,
But not everyone would follow "the basic operating system", I would imagine, assuming your model is an accurate representation.
Do you think most, within that system, behave as "Apex Predators"?
Some?
Is it more prevalent in certain situations, such as in the working environment?
Could it be that the situation itself may "switch off" empathy that a person may possess?

I was just curious about your premise.

In regard to "Empathy".
Could you define what *you* mean by that?

I spend more of my time observing people interacting when I'm forced to socialize with them than I do interacting with them
It is an unconscious behavioral pattern that is generally rooted in gravitating to what is known and familiar and shunning what is different and unfamiliar. It is fascinating to observe from a detached and emotionless vantage. Depending on one's standing within the dominance hierarchy just assembled will dictate how others in the group will accept each other. Too different, shunned or silenced.

Humanity is the apex predator of the planet. The only predators we have to fear are more powerful humans with more powerful weapons. Message me privately if you want to further discuss humans as apex predators I don't want to go on this tangent here.

Empathy: one's ability to experience the emotions of others and usually relate back these emotions to others.

I don't think you were off topic, I've answered your questions I believe.



Last edited by adromedanblackhole on 11 Oct 2020, 8:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.

adromedanblackhole
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11 Oct 2020, 8:08 pm

Because I see a few posts here focusing in on the topic that yes people on the spectrum experience empathy: thank you, somewhat tangential to the post.

I am curious to hear from others in terms of their experience in showing less empathy towards a world that seems to have very little for them. If this is not something you relate to, I am very impressed.

Many of us, myself included, feel that most social dynamics are painful, feel that we are often on guard from various forms of malevolent social behavior towards us, various forms of bullying etc. As a response to associating socialization with something painful, do you find yourself consciously dialing down the level of empathy you feel for others?

I will give an example: I am the weird one in my unit at work. I have been sitting next to people who didn't know I was there and listened to them gossip about me. My boss is very bullying, dismissive, belittling. The list goes on. Say any one of these people were to be exhibiting severe emotional distress while at work, let's say crying. I would not show interest in helping them, one because I don't see these people as friends but also I would suspect that it would be ill received and another thing to ridicule me about when I'm not around. I do not see this as a reflection of me, I see it as a reflection of them. You cannot be consistently cruel to a person and then make it that person's fault if they choose to become emotionally avoidant and disinterested.



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11 Oct 2020, 8:46 pm

adromedanblackhole wrote:
Juliette wrote:
There was a groundbreaking study on this quite a few years back that suggests that we don’t lack empathy, that we actually feel others’ emotions too intensely...

https://www.thestar.com/life/health_wellness/diseases_cures/2009/05/14/aspergers_theory_does_aboutface.html

Yes I have seen this. For yourself, do you ever feel like you've become a bit jaded by the cruelty of the world where you probably could come across like a person lacking empathy? I do feel like the broader world has taught me not to care.


A bit jaded .... impossible to not be. My childhood and background is pretty much a nightmare ... but I’m somehow still positive in outlook generally, and I still care. Prozac helps. So far, in terms of self employment, and just life in general, no-one has ever said that I appear to lack empathy. I was assessed at Uni when working with babies and children, initially as a Nursery Nurse, and later in various other roles, and was told I was a natural. But, internally I’m now in self preservation-mode as I seem to have this habit of letting the wrong people into my life. When I hear from others that “they would have run a mile”, that certain red flags do justify recent events, that makes me feel stronger.

But no question about it, it is easier to just “not care” and to cut yourself off ... but deep down, I’m really just kidding myself as I do care. No choice but to disocciate from all the negative and focus on the positive. Keeping busy helps.

The mind is a powerful thing. If you are feeling jaded, as many of us are, and you feel the world has taught you not to care ... then this is an act of self preservation. Far better to be in that mode, than to wind up having a breakdown. Everyone has a breaking point. Hope you’re staying afloat.



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11 Oct 2020, 9:31 pm

Just the acute insensitivity of a world that isolates you, tells you how weird you are, makes you feel you don't belong anywhere, makes you feel less valuable than other people, makes you feel alone to then suggest that it is YOU that lacks empathy...
Just seems like a dog that gets hit repeatedly and no longer comes when called. Like it's somehow the dog's fault for being avoidant.

Just to draw everyone's attention to the rules for The Haven forum: viewtopic.php?t=297515
Please have a read before commenting
Thank you



Last edited by adromedanblackhole on 11 Oct 2020, 9:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.