Seriously, why is there so much Misogyny on WrongPlanet?!

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I was. And I had testosterone. Still do, in fact.



I absolutely refute the suggestion that men are somehow unable to control themselves, or cannot be held responsible for certain behaviours, because of the chemicals in their bodies. Many can and do. But there has been an accepted narrative that men are at the mercy of their genitals for a long, long time and it's very tied up with the idea that masculinity is the dominant force in human society.

I agree with the Twilight Princess that men and women aren't as different as some would like us to believe. Even where our biologies differ, we have enough similarities that we can at least understand and imagine what the other sex is experiencing, if we're minded to try.

But for some men, it suits us very well to have this excuse of testosterone because it relieves us of the responsibility for our actions. We should always be suspicious when the defenders of the status quo are those who directly benefit from it. We should also be suspicious whenever people tell us they are powerless to change a behaviour that is comfortable for them.

Human beings have many instinctive behaviours that are the result of chemicals in their bodies. Part of being civilised is that we agree that some behaviours are no longer appropriate - that's the trade-off for safety, a better standard of living and societal rules that allow us to own more than we can physically protect. And we can override these basic drives, if we choose to do so. The impulses that testosterone encourage in men can be resisted, if you foster an environment where they are agreed to be unacceptable.

And that's the important bit. It has to be agreed. It can't just be women saying it because it gives weight to the "you can't possibly understand" argument. So it's essential that men who know this is BS stand up and say so. This isn't white knighting or being pussy-whipped or whatever you want to call it. Peer pressure is a powerful force in attacking cultural shibboleths.

That "long, long time" being around 5000 years or so, to be exact. It's patriarchy that's at the root of that but patriarchy did not always exist, nor is it as universal in human societies as many people think. Even today, there are still some traditional non-patriarchal societies (some people call them matriarchal but that's not actually accurate according to how anthropologists would define the term).

It is a proven fact that testosterone causes aggression:



Please don't disseminate disinformation.
And plz don't misrepresent what is being said.
This is not a defense of aggression by men.
This is not a defense of misogyny.
It is a reality of life.
I.E. Men have to work against the influences of testosterone.

As men should not tell women how women think and feel.
Women should not tell men how they think and feel.
Simples.

It is an absurdity to say anything differently, especially since some women on WP have explicitly stated how offended they are when men "mansplain" to a woman.

No one here knows my email apart from the mods/admin ( 2 ex mods,1 banned member and Raleigh) , and I want it to stay that way, no offence dude but I'll wait for you to get back to me - no rush , it's a bit off topic so maybe we should just drop it.

What I do when I don't want to share my permanent email address is make a temporary one, but you know that.
I understand that you are not interested in emailing me at all, and that is fine, m8.
You are not the only one.

No, I think what I was going to say will stay with me, for the time being at least.

No. It's a proven fact that increases in testosterone can cause people to feel more aggressive.

What people do with those feelings is up to them. That's what I'm talking about. We can feel things without acting on them. Or we can channel them into more productive and acceptable behaviours. We can teach people how to manage these feelings. We can communicate clearly when people's behaviour is not acceptable. We do this with children all the time. But for some reason, and I believe it's a reason of convenience, we make exceptions for boys.

Great points and I agree.

I should know, since im getting treatment for my T hormones, that they can cause libido to skyrocket. No wonder so many guys have that strong need for it. I understand it from many points of view, and some trans people might be dealing with that too, unless they're put on certain HRT.

Besides that, we know that intimacy is of multiple types, and it varies in individuals what intimacy fills up the needs of people, but it also tends to vary in different genders: men are more likely to receive their love and intimacy needs through sex, while women connect through spending time/shared topic etc. the other means of receiving intimacy and taking care of their needs. Creating intimacy is the most important in relationships, besides the natural need and DSM 5 no longer accepts sex addiction categorized as an addiction because it's normal as evolved animals, homo sapiens is going to be libidinous. Even to the point it is problematic.

Semantics, OK.

Consider this:
I am hypersensitive to caffeine.
Caffeine can make me FEEL aggressive.
I find this FEELING is hard to control.
It makes me aggressive at times, even when I don't want to be.
Caffeine affects the entire emotional spectrum, btw.

Testosterone works the same way in that it can and does cause aggressive impulses.
Did you not see my link?
One way to mitigate this aggression in dogs is through neutering.
Perhaps you should research "Steroid Rage", also.

If that was self deprecation
If you were trying to make me feel sorry/guilty
If you were being factual, then no worries dude.

I'ts not semantics at all. It's cause and effect. You're drawing a direct link between the presence of a chemical and a behaviour. You're completely ignoring the presence of higher brain functions. Which is why you can't really compare animal behaviour to human behaviour - we've evolved complex neurological systems that can intervene and override most impulses if we become adept at recognising them and redirecting them. We neuter dogs to reduce aggression because you cannot reason with a dog.

I don't see any difference between your caffeine example and the case of testosterone. Yes, chemicals can change your brain state. If you put them in your body deliberately, you're responsible for that. If they occur naturally, you're still responsible for how you deal with them.

I don't disagree in any way to the statement that testosterone can and does cause aggressive impulses.

I totally disagree with any suggestion that this reduces the responsibility of the person feeling aggressive to channel it in a way that's acceptable to society.

And perhaps you will say that you haven't done that. But the question has to be asked - why bring it up, then? (I don't know if you did, originally, I mean in the abstract). If not to excuse? What is the purpose of testosterone in a conversation about misogyny if not to shift a portion of the blame to the chemical rather than the person? If not to suggest that the problem (not the cause, the effect) is with the chemical state, not the behaviour? Because if we accept that, then the only way for an equal society is if we have our balls lopped off. And I like my balls. They've always been there for me.

This is what I mean about a cultural narrative. Boys will be boys. It's just the way things are. You can't change nature. This is received wisdom however much some people would like it to be cold, hard reality.

Most men have testosterone, to varying degrees, and the receptors that bind it, to varying degrees. Not all men blame women for their lack of success. It's behaviour, not chemistry.

The bottom line, testosterone causes aggressive feelings that may be expressed verbally.
There is NO PHYSICAL aggression online.
Are we good now?

I'm tired of this idea that there are "cliques", and that you keep saying "no names" as if there's a secret agenda by masked vigilantes to plot and conspire against others. This isn't middle school. We aren't 12 years old and that kind of thinking is only going cause division, paranoia, or hostility.

Some people naturally have friends or friend groups to a certain extent just like you'd find in any cross-section of society. That doesn't mean they're in cliques, that they troll others, or they have a nefarious intent to gang up on people. Someone recently accused me of being in a clique with 3-4 other members who were all female. I don't think it was you who said it, but it's relevant to this topic. It was funny at first because I didn't even know those women but we were being stereotyped as a girl gang by our gender alone. "Chick clique" connotes that females being friends with other females must also be "Mean Girls" with a covert conspiracy against men. That's ridiculous and quite frankly offensive to me because a majority of my friends are men and I've always supported men's issues. I don't want anyone suggesting I'm a misandrist or that I have any sort of plan against anyone.

Yes I have friends here but trust me, we don't spend our time talking about you or making conspiracies to hurt people. We talk about our real lives, about music and our children and our pets. That's how WP is expected to function, by helping autistic people make connections. When you keep saying there are cliques it makes WP sound very adversarial when that's simply not the case, or not from my POV anyway. I think it would help if you'd stop using words like 'clique', especially when no one really knows who or what you mean. If I ever made friends who felt like a "clique" I'd tell them where to go. I'm an intelligent woman with my own mind, and it's rather patronising for you to keep suggesting otherwise.

Thanks.

Were we not good? It's just debate.

I can't disagree with either of your statements here. I could take issue with the 'bottom line' part but my testosterone levels are very low today and I just can't get too worked up about it...

^^

I'm not sure how this testosterone topic began.
I'm not really concerned about bioscience or evolutionary biology when I come here.
We have differing personalities for various reasons, on WP and in "real life".

Regardless, we all have the same set of rules.
Attacking or indirectly attacking / hurting / insulting / judging others isn't OK.
We all have bad days and make mistakes sometimes.
If that happens, apologise to the person.
It's not rocket science.

There's not really an excuse for people who have bad days every day, imo
Some people find it extremely hard to follow the rules and be respectful of EVERYONE.
No member/groups of members should feel they are consistently marginalised by others.
If that's happening, we need to look at solutions rather than discussing testosterone.

Exactly this. Venting because you feel bad is allowed, attacking others because you feel bad is not.