"I would say you don't have Asperger's..."

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Regarding the therapist, I've found therapists are utterly useless for treating AS related problems. I've been to several therapists in my life, and I've had the same sort of experiences you seem to be having. They do not have the training to understand and deal with AS. I don't know where you live, but in Australia you can become a qualified counselor after studying for only one year. They can be very helpful to NT's in regards to dealing with NT related daily problems, but they're of no use for anything else, because their entire approach is based on an NT thought framework. I've been where you are, and I've tried to reason with these people - explain my positions and feelings in as literal and simple language as I can, repeat myself over and over, but they continue to draw inferences from the things I say that aren't there (but probably would be there if I wasn't AS).

If you want to see someone for counseling about AS, your best bet I think is to go to a psychologist/psychiatrist who specializes in it. Unless you know of a therapist who claims to specialize in it. The problem with seeing your every day therapist with AS related issues is that your thinking is completely alien to them, and they have no possible way of deciphering what you're trying to say or understanding the underlying processes when their approach is based on the way THEY think.

I may be repeating myself, so I'll stop here. Therapy is a bit of a sore spot with me, for the above mentioned reasons, and I'm not in your position - I do actually come to these guys with an official AS diagnosis from a highly qualified source, so they haven't used the "you're delusional/lying" card on me.

Sorry I disappeared for a while. Life got busy. It's Friday now though so I don't have to leave the house for two whole days. Just imagine the peace...

I've never been to a therapist but I do agree with a lot that Sunshine says. I seem to end up having a lot of unspoken conflict with people simply because they don't believe that I mean what I say. Especially at the beginning of conversations when choices about something are presented, I'll make my choice quickly and stick with it. I'm not being stubborn when I do that, it's just that I can think quickly and am not interested in being manipulated into saying something else. Neither am I going to pretend to think about my decision again simply because other people are so slow. It's not arrogance or rudeness, it's just how I am. If other people don't like that decision and want me to list my choices in order of preference then why don't they SAY so?

So yes, I think maybe therapists are accustomed to working with people who find it impossible to say what they mean and expect everybody to be like that. It's not helpful for anybody and causes frustration for obvious reasons.

It's interesting what you say about the drugs. I wonder if the dose could be reduced for you?

Well, luckily, (or maybe unluckily depending on how you look at it...) I'm on unemployment so this therapist's visits are on my local county. I just went in for meds and they insisted that the therapist could help me 'break the cycle' of recurrent depression. Again, I doubt it but there's no harm in trying. Someone gets paid by the county to listen to my life story. I suppose its a public service in a way.

I didn't go in specifically for Asperger's but i did bring it up because a) I'm trying to get home services for my daughter and b) whether I officially have it or not is irrelevent - all the things that have plagued me in my life and have contributed to depression stem, in part, from things I have identified as Asperger's issues. they don't need to believe my self dx - they just need to take my reports of those issues seriously. Which, they are. They made it clear fairly quickly that they did not believe that I have Aperger's - both therapist and doctor within the first 10 minutes of talking to me. They are looking for overt, common outward signs - which I do not have. I have subtle stims which I can recognise and control. I have sound issues but not to the point of meltdown. I have taught myself alot of adaptive behaviors and, if I do officially have Asperger's I believe, even as a kid, I would have been termed 'mild'. I see a mirror of myself in my daughter which is what brought me to this point in the first place. As long at they take my experiences seriously, I don't really care what they do or do not call it.

The problem I do foresee is something I've encounter before while in couples therapy. The same as you guys encountered - they are trying to read more into what I say or how I react than is actually there. When I asked why the therapist thought I was upset by my self dx, she went into this lengthy, careful explanation but never really answered the question. She offered me reasons why she thought we should address it, it's role in my depression, etc... but never 'I thought you were upset because...". When I initially talked to her about it and gave her the list, I was weepy. I told her I get weepy talking about myself but that it is uncontrollable when I'm depressed. It was the depression making me cry. That's it. I'm pretty sure she read pain in my reaction when there wasn't any there. Because, that's why 'normal' people cry - when they are emotionally upset. While crying I told her I was happy about the realization and felt better about myself because of it. But emotional reactions trump words in their world. If it becomes too much of an issue - I think I'll recognize it and hopefully be able to steer it back on course.

Sunshower - therapists here need a bit more school than that! All the ones I've seen have been a minimum of 4 years school plus one year clinical practice under a licensed psych. I don't know what is 'required' but those ar the qualifications of the few I've seen because they have all been with large, public organizations. I've never gone to private practicioners - they may have less training but I'm pretty sure it is still a 4 year degree.

If I ever do want to pursue an official dx, I'll be going to a university hospital that specializes in AS.

That's kind of funny... thinking further into it. Therapists are reacting to something thats just not there. They are reacting to something they think should be there. I don't necessarily believe that all those with AS are totally incapable of lying but, I know I had to learn how to lie in order to get along with people in general. That 'honesty is the best policy' line is total bull. The way they work is totally illogical and contradictory yet we are the ones that need fixing. Sorry if that is negative but that's where I am at the moment. I'm not an 'us vs. them' type of person. My patience is just shot atm.

I completely understand. I'm not an "us vs. them" person either, but I can get a bit like that after "therapy". You and Peeled Lemon have summed it up neatly when you say that they assume you're lying when you're telling the truth straight out, and this is one of the major problems.

Regarding emotions, I am the same as you in that when I cry mostly I am crying due to stress or anxiety but not sadness. I often have tears running down my face in the middle of a meltdown (eg. I'm sitting having lunch in a public place, the crowds get to me because I'm in a fragile overstressed state to begin with, and tears start running down my face, so friends get super concerned and ask what's wrong, I tell them that nothing's wrong - I'm just stressed, but I'm not sad or anything, of course they don't believe me because that's exactly the response non-AS people give when they ARE sad). When I feel sad mostly I don't cry, except in really extreme circumstances - but then it's not pure 'sad' but a combination of extreme stress, frustration, grief, sadness, pain.

Boy I’m so lucky not to have needed the drugs that you describe. The side effects appear to be a nightmare. I am not an expert and, while I often get really down at times, I don’t think I suffer from depression, but I do not think that a clear link between depression and AS has been established. There are plenty of people out there, without AS, that suffer from depression. Having to deal with the limitations that AS brings can be tough at times and it is not surprising that there is a tendency for the results of AS to trigger depression.

If, I were ever to be prescribed the drugs that you mention, I would have to think very hard about the pros and cons of taking them. I firmly believe, as some of the text book theory states, that my AS is a result of a different way that my brain works to those of NTs. NTs have abilities that I will never understand. To me NTs seem much more capable of processing lots of different types of information at the same time. To cope as best as it can and keep up with my NT colleagues and acquaintances, my less capable brain has to work twice as hard to keep up. While this inability to process lots of information at the same time is a disadvantage, the way that my brain has to work to keep up seems to give me a focus and an ability to get to the bottom of the real issues that is, dare I say, better than many of my NT acquaintances. I would have thought it unlikely that any drug is going to help me to process my (mono processed) thoughts any quicker so, unless the drugs were able to switch on an NT part of my brain, I would have thought that they would actually make me less able to deal with and fit into my NT environment. I reiterate that I am not an expert and we are all different. Anybody reading this ought to seek the advice of someone that knows what they are talking about before making such a huge decision regarding varying the use of prescribed drugs.

In this thread you have referred to lying several times. I have also referred to lying in at least one discussion on this board. I have been thinking long and hard about this. When I have referred to NTs and lying, I do not necessarily mean that they are telling untruths. I think it is a technique that NTs naturally use that builds on their “empathic” abilities to instinctively know how people will react in certain situations to manipulate them to take certain actions. Some do this better than others. I have no ability to perceive how to manipulate people in this way. I imagine that this is a good ability in certain professions such as sales, some legal disciplines, and some managerial positions. I would never make a good salesman but I have managed to become a reasonably good manager using my limited AS way of working and I am known professionally for my honesty and integrity. AS thinking can work in the professional environment. I once gave a boss of mine a big problem. He tasked me with doing something, which he was told by several consultants, that was near impossible given the working constraints. He gave me and several colleagues a big talk why it was important that I succeed to save the company. I tackled the problem with my AS focus and delivered exactly the solution that I was told was needed, at a fraction of the estimated cost. Wow! I saved the company. Was I given an award? No! What my boss actually wanted was me to prove for him that there was no solution so that he could make a business case to pursue a different course. My success made him very embarrassed and I was taken off the project before my solution could be implemented for production. In giving me, and others this his misleading message, my boss never told an untruth. Would I have understood what he really wanted if I were NT? I will never know. If he had been clear to me about what he really wanted, I would not have put in any effort to finding a solution and his motives may have been spotted by his boss, who always remembered me for my success.

Your thread is much focussed and you appear to have a good positive insight into your own issues. I sincerely hope that you can work things through and tackle your depression.

Anyway, that is too much ranting and reminiscing from me.

Best wishes

I am focused on the lying part, perhaps too much at the moment. It's not a new revelation for me. It's something I have maintained for years. To me, it's lying simply because I see the issue as black and white where there is clearly a matter of degrees in society in general. Lying seems to generally be considered something bad when it is done for some sort of personal gain or to harm another. When it is done to spare anothers feelings is is considered a 'white lie'. I probably wouldn't have an issue with this if the
'white lie' just had a designation and definition all it's own. But, essentially, whatever the reason, it is an untruth. You won't say "Mom, this conversation is boring me so I'm gonna go." no matter how true it is. You dance around it and soften it into something that isn't personally insulting - invariably making up some false emergency to spare your mother's feelings. No matter how benevolent - it is still an untruth and an excepted part of society despite their loud and reinforced stigma against liars. Clearly only CERTAIN liars, not ALL liars. There are so many of these inequitable dicotomies in society and then they wonder why people don't understand each other and just get along.

If your boss had just said what he met, he would have gotten the results he was looking for. A little bit of truth would have went a long way.

I've been back and forth with so many of these depression meds, I have a good handle on what they will and will not do for me. The big catch is when they suddenly decide to turn on me. Every prescription is a crapshoot for me. I never take any prescription lightly. My therpaist is talking about being on a long term maintenance dosage in order to prevent my cycling. I think she may be leaning towards a dysthmia dx. She's probably right about the condition but I already know they are off base on my med needs. I only occassionally can't pull myself out of it. I had a cluster of triggers happening all at once going into the Fall... I needed the help. Once I'm feeling balanced and can get back to my preventative strategies, I'll wean myself off the meds whether they want me to or not. I have 17 years experience with my depression. They do not.

I take issue with your 'less capable brain' - I have the desire to defend your brain against such bullying! I do not think that AS creates a less capable brain. Technically, all brains are specialized brains - each one is more unique than a snowflake... NT brains are generalist brains with a focus on outside input. AS brains are specializist brains, focused more on the internal in one or more specialized fields. Just as NT's work hard to learn how to get that 'intense focus' through meditation and workshops and self help gurus, it is something most with AS can't seem to turn off. NT's consider this trait desirable yet, it is something they try to curb in AS. We work hard to understand the seemingly undecipherable social language the generalist brain uses on a daily basis yet they can't comprehend that this ability needs active thought to accomplish.

As wonderful as science it, it is horribly restrictive in its thinking. Look at weight loss. thirty years ago science was positive that ingested cholesterol was clogging arteries and casue heart disease becasue they found cholesterol in peoples arteries. People swore off eggs for a full decade or more. But, the tide turned. Fifteen years ago, carbs became the enemy. Now the fatty burger was your friend and the bun was the villian. Now, they are just trying to undemonize food and focus on a healthy diet. That poor food pyramid has changes several times - science just doesn't really seem to know. But, through it all, people maintain that 'everyone is different' yet the science keeps looking for a 'one size fits all' explanation that will fix all obesity. Science has a real hard time with having more than one correct answer. There may be more than one reason people get fat and have trouble losing it. Just as there may be more than one 'normal' brain type. The 'generalized' brain may not be the only NT brain. The way it is looking, there may be a scary number of AS brains in our society - many many more than they could have predicted. If that holds to be true, they just may have to challenge what constitutes 'normal'. They already acknowledge that AS is just a difference but, so far, it seems to just be lip service. I'd like to see action that supports that statement.

Two snowflakes were found to be the same recently - true story.

With lying, I think with me it's more of a problem that people assume I'm lying just because they usually do. I'm used to their lies, white or not, and the reasoning behind them - to make transitions go smoothly, to make other people feel better about themselves, to fit in with a group. It's just that I, increasingly, don't have the energy for that so I'll say what I mean right at the beginning or make my choice super quickly and, of course, they're not used to people who do that so they don't know how to react. I also find it difficult to use body language to lie. I can't smile and laugh when I feel sad even though I'm with a group of people who all know how to do it

With boring conversations, I will actually wander off and pick up a book. My mum came half way across the world to visit a few months ago and she focused on the same topic of conversation every night. I just wandered off and picked up a book on one of those nights leaving my husband to talk to her. I don't actually have that much to say to her. She never listens to me. She loves the person she wants me to be, not the person I actually am, and has done so for my whole life. If it wasn't for my husband, her visit would have passed in almost absolute silence. Several days of it did, actually. I'm sure this shows what an awful person I am, but, like I said, I find it hard to pretend.

Is it me or does the list seem to be... I don't know... over the top and too stereotypical?

I love that actually being diagnosed with asperger's is on the list.

A lot of things on it are the reason why I think I might have asperger's, but then there are things on it that aren't issues for me, and it doesn't help that a diagnosis for a woman is so much harder to get, let alone the problems people seem to have just by daring to be grown-up. I think the people who go for one are brave.

Well, Rudy Simone compiled that list as a composite of her interviews with women with AS. It isn't a diagnostic tool but more a list of traits she found common in her interviews. I'm not sure it's 'over the top' - nothing seems far fetched or impossible to me. And stereotypes exist for a reason... they are broad generalization of traits that are seen in a population. While it is unwise and possibly offensive to use stereotypes to prejudge people, they also serve to reinforce both positive and negative traits. If Rudy Simone found these 'stereotypical' traits in the women she interviewed wouldn't that just reinforce the belief that these traits are common and can be expected to some degree? Isn't that how science delineates dx criteria? Offical dx criteria ARE stereotypes and many people are misdiagnosed thanks to a rigid adhereance to those broad and not always applicable stereotypes. There is nothing wrong with stereotypes as long as they are used as a tool and not a weapon.

Tony Attwood's Asperger's and Girls was the book that clued me in on my own possible traits. I was reading this in my research efforts for my daughter. Up until that time, I had never really seen any of the 'sypmtoms' in myself. When I read this book, the lightbulbs started to flicker. In rereading it from my own perspective, all of a sudden my life seemed to click into place. I had read everything about children's dx but this was the first book that suggested what Asperger's looked like in an adult. I found Rudy Simone's book here, on the forum, and that list of hers just further reinforced what I had been coming to realize.

Funny thing, bravery. I often wonder if I'm brave because despite always getting knocked down, I always seem to pick myself off, dust myself off and carry on. It makes me stubborn and maybe a bit stupid but I've never really considered it brave. I'm kind of skirting the issue of getting an official dx - on one hand, I'd like to know, to satisfy curiosity's sake but I'm too well aware of the horror stories I've read here. BUT I'm a big proponent of not being a slave to the stereotypes - I gave my doctor and therapist a trial run to see what their reactions would be. I could have just given her a blank list of past issues without any sort of Asperger's associations on it. I chose to introduce the idea. Unfortunately, they lived up to the stereotypes. Was that brave? Nah. I just have that need to poke a hornets nest with a stick sometimes. Foolish, definitely.

Wait, you're upset that you *don't* have Asperger's? Speaking as someone who has it, it's not really something that you want to have.

I'm pretty sure my posts did not say that.

I am not officially dx'd with Asperger's. I don't need a dx but one may be helpful for reasons I've outlined here several times. I am currently seeing a therapists and a psych for depression and they have both stated within the first 10 minutes of meeting them that I do not have it for some sadly misguided stereotypical reasons.

Really... all of this was in my posts...

What I want is irrevelent as is the 'official' dx. I still have my challenges to deal with. I have already been dealing with them for decades with limited success. Having a name for them is nice but not essential. I'm not sure I said I 'want' to have Asperger's, I simply said I think I do.

You could easily have something other than Asperger's. The symptoms of Asperger's often overlap with other disorders.

I'm not sure why you think I'm taking this lightly or that I haven't done my research. I've done years worth of research because my daughter's AS dx, among other things. I'm not sure why you are assuming I haven't considered 'other disorders'.

Because you seem adamant that you have Asperger's.