The Gender discussions on L&D are harming me

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You said it better than I could. Nailed it!

This is a very good example of a post that belongs here in The Haven where people can give you emotional support rather than on the Love and Dating forum, where people will try to give you solutions which you have heard before.

I'm sorry you feel that you are worthless. We have had our disagreements on things on this forum and this is going to be another one of them as different people will have different perspectives on the worth of someone. You occasionaly make posts unrelated to your dating woes, in which you share some knowledge or insight or perspectives which you speak well on and in those posts, often provide positive contributions to the forum and other members on it, and I think many find that to be an attractive quality. I hope that you recognize that you have positive value as a person even if you don't feel that you do.

Incorrect. Your toxic posts towards yourself are toxic to others reading that negativity. You think a kid who's a cutter is only harming himself and isn't destroying his mother with each new scar? Peoples' actions towards themselves affect others, too.

If you're getting nothing of value by being here, then you should leave and better yourself. Up to you.

You are wrong in believing that self worth can be bestowed upon someone by someone else, or diminished by someone else. Self worth is determined solely by what you think of yourself - not what anyone else says about you. If you have zero, or negative, self worth, then it's your thoughts & feelings about yourself that need to be improved.

If women have told you that you're "not a real man/worthless/undatable," then as rude as their words may have been, strip away the rudeness and hear the message. Ask yourself what qualities you're lacking that would make them say that, and then work towards building yourself up in order to be more attractive to women. It's the exact same thing that every other guy on the planet has to do who wants to attract others. A part of what started me working out regularly was a very close friend of mine describing the types of builds they were attracted to, and it clicked in my mind that I want to be able to attract someone like them - so - I'll get fitter & stronger. I do it for waaaaay more reasons than just to be more attractive to others, but, it's also a reason for sure. Put in the work and earn what you want, or don't & don't get it. It's that simple.

If someone's determined to go to college then they'll reassess and make a better plan - ie go upgrade some high school classes until they're accepted into college vs. just give up. I'm pretty sure that I can't go directly into my University of choice & I'll have to go to a lesser University for a couple of years and then transfer over once I prove myself with good grades, but so what? I'll do whatever it takes.

There are no statistics on the percentage of men with AS who are single vs. the percentage of women with AS who are single so one cannot make accurate claim s on that matter one way or another.

There probably are more males with AS than females, however, females are known to be underdiagnosed.

My plan is not sex or gender specific nor involuntary, nor would block someone from WP. If a person wants to complain about something and clicks on a link consisten with that, and ends up in a forum consistent with that, regardless of whether or not that forum is on a different website, they have arrived at a place consistent with their needs and desires.

Except that women started a movement in order to not be treated so extremely "lesser than," than the typical male. So that they could get educations, jobs etc vs. be relegated to being barefoot & pregnant in the kitchen simply for being female. There's still going to be a wide range of levels of success for women in fitness, occupation, education, finances etc - just as there are with men.

It is completely unrealistic (as in never EVER EVER EVER going to happen) to expect that the entire world is going to change to accept "loser guys," as you call them. Never ever ever EVER are women going to flock to men who are horribly out of shape, can't or won't work, and have no money/status etc. It's simply the OPPOSITE of how we've evolved as human beings. People will seek out the BEST mate they can. Even other males who aren't gay. Men are going to pick the best other men to be their friends, coworkers, teammates etc and there's always going to be someone who gets picked last or not at all.

If you're one of those who gets picked last or not at all, it's INFINITELY easier to change yourself (the one person you have complete control over!) than it is to convince several BILLION people to change. You'd die before that ever happened. At least with changing yourself you can make a complete transformation in a few short years and then live the rest of your life better off for it.

Or keep doing your thing & keep getting exactly what you don't want. Your choice.

Laws can be changed because they are social constructs. Neverthless, it took nearly 100 years for women to gain the right to vote, and many of the other rights women fought for, and in some areas, longer.

What people find attractive in a mate is not something they control so advocating for them to change their preferences is probably not going to work. What people expect in a mate is a little more flexible. If pushed for long enough, maybe this will become a society where women do the asking out and the paying. But I don't think that will happen while you are still young.

I already cited the post I was replying to, which was itself part of an ongoing discussion about how unambiguously misogynistic that forum is, while I see the most usual topic where that accusation crops up is the inability of some male members, like myself, to get romantic or sexual relationships. In particular, there are a few female members who will call misogyny any time it is mentioned that some difficulties (like failing to attract anyone at all, ever, in any way, no matter how unflattering you think it is from your female standpoint) are in an overwhelming majority of cases experienced by men. They refuse to accept these differences exist, and insist on replying to our issues as if what usually works for women should be expected to work for us, and any disagreement means we hate women. I tried to discuss this rationally with them, to no avail, as already described. I don’t have the time to hunt down every such post and can’t recall if you were in any of those threads.



So it’d be more helpful to use the forum as it was intended and enlighten us about what we don’t know, rather than get upset, refuse to contribute to the discussion and then complain about the forum as a whole, as if those looking for help should be expected not to need help after all.



If the conclusion is true, it doesn’t make sense to call it misogynistic, unless your definition of this term is such that facts can be misogynistic, and at this point it becomes a gratuitous smear word. If the conclusion is false, what I said above should apply, regardless of whether you think it’s misogynistic. No need to assume bad faith.



Sometimes the advice itself isn’t constructive at all. No wonder it attracts further discussion, and this is usually met with accusations of misogyny.



Maybe, maybe not. You seem to be impatient for us to stop talking about our difficulties, and to want us to give up looking for any kind of improvement if we don’t achieve certain results quickly. Maybe as quickly as female members who express similar frustrations and hopelessness usually take to get into their next relationship? Well, that’s the point: we’re neither female nor successful.



Simply because you left no room for us in the three “forums” that should replace the “Love and Dating” one according to you, with the strong implication that our problems either aren’t real or don’t matter and we just want to rant and be misogynists for its own sake.



Good to know. However, I guess the catch is in what you understand by to rant or vent. Or simply in judging us from your different, female perspective, facing whatever challenges you encounter, but not the same as us.



You seemed to for the above reasons.

I don't see what post you are referencing. If you are referencing a post of mine in this thread, please highlight where you think I have characterized any man who talks about his failure to get romantic or sexual relationships as a misogynist.

I have provided clear examples of misogyny upon the OP's request and I have also detailed the difference between venting/discussing one's difficulties in dating, and misogyny/misandry.



I have always attempted to enlighten and contribute to the discussion and I think there is overwhelming evidence that attests to that. I'm not upset. Where do you get the impression that I am?



I'm not really sure how philosphers handle generalizations but colloquially, when someone proclaims something such as "Women just want to date jerks" or "women just care about money" or "men just want sex" or "men are rapists", and I don't want to date a jerk, and I don't just care about money, and you don't just want sex, and you aren't a rapist, I am within my right to call the statements pertaining to me misogynistic and they are accurately misogynistic and you are within your right to call the statements pertaining to you misandristic and they are accurately misandristic. It's proof by contradiction.

There is a website called "Heartless Aspergers" which contains supposed testimonials of domestic abuse of women who believe their abusive husbands are on the spectrum. While some of these women may indeed have abusive husbands on the spectrum, the problem with "Heartless Aspergers" is it tries to characterize men on the spectrum in general as abusive jerks. As such, many members have, understandably, taken offense to it.

The levels of misogyny in the Love and Dating forum, have at times, been such that it has been akin to the "Heartless Aspergers" site with the hate directed at women.



Sometimes it isn't but there is no guarantee one is going to be able to construct out of any advice. Additionally, this is an internet forum where people from various walks of life can contribute. The nature of the advice will reflective of that. Much like medical forums, the input from other members does not constitute qualified advice from a medical or mental health practitioner and I don't believe one should expect it to.



No, I merely think perpetual rants and vents should be placed in forums that were created for such things, such as here in The Haven, people should abide by the TOS of the Love and Dating forum when posting in it, and misogyny should not have a place on WP.

If there were hoards of women inundating the Love and Dating forum with posts with broad generalizations claiming that men are jerks or sexual predators, or making false claims that mischaracterize the men here or ignore their existence, and I observed these posts, I would take issue with their misandry.

I'm sure it does not feel good for a man here who has always been respectful to women to be faced with a woman claiming men are jerks while ignoring the fact that he exists. Women have been faced with similar situations here on WP many times over. Such misogynistic/misandristic mindsets and state ments are not conducive to the formation of healthy relationships and negatively impact those who they are directed at and lower the morale of the forum.



Then you have interpreted incorrectly. If you want to rant then both the rants and raves section of craigslist, and The Haven exist to accomodate your needs, but I see you have already acknowledged that below.

But you are free to make site change suggestions as much as I am if you feel mine are lacking.

As for being misogynistic, I believe that is against the forum TOS.



You must not have read any of the posts in which I talk about human social structures, unfairness and inequality. I highlighted the latter very recently in a post about country clubs.

We could stir a novel just listing all the unrealistic or impossible things that happen.
I’m sure people back then would said it’s unrealistic to expect the world to change that women are House wife’s and don’t work, that women who do work get paid less, etc. but guess what it happen. Despite people like you who’d rather just keep it the same then Change. Hopefully 60 years from it change and your just look like a fool same as older men who said equality for women wouldn’t happen, that all women can do is keep to their stereotype. Men needing to have a good job , car and s**t is a outdated male stereotype and it needs to f*****g die and be burned. I refuse t accept such a horrible sterotupe that’s forced on us men. So I’ll keep fighting it until we as a society say it’s wrong or I die.

What people want in a mate is entirely and solely culture and society based. Just as what people find sexual attractive is. People and Africa sexualize ankles or necks, we sexualize boobs and butts. Western society use to also sexualize ankles we don’t now, we as a society changed what we find sexual. Given time if feminism succeeds future men won’t find boobs sexual anymore. They’ve already changed how fat women are seen sexually attractive and dateable., they changed how men use to prefer submissive women who don’t work. Todsy men date women who work and marry them. In the past such women would have to quit and be housewives. That’s what men preferred. Some still do, but where as in the past it was the majority now it’s a minority, so no any society change is possible and can happen. There’s no reason we cant change society to not base a mans worth off of his job income. There’s not impossible unless we just don’t try,
And that’s the issue. Most women including feminist don’t want to change they like the current system of basing a mans worth off his income instead of his personality. It benefits them to date well off men, to make all men strive to be well off or kill themselves when failing to do so. It certainly doesn’t benfiti men, and in the long run as the Japanese are finding out it doesn’t benefit society. Men are overworked, over stressed chasing a status that becomes more and more unobtainable every year. Money is being devalued, stuff cost more. People have to work longer and longer shifts more hours a week to try to make the same money they did 10 years ago. Is working ourselves to death to be well off and dateable the way we should be doing it?
How about if we deemed low income as ok life style. Instead of chasing upper middle class life, that most people will never have. They work themselves to an early grave never obtaining it just for their kids to repeat it but worse. Our parents didn’t have to work as muc and neither did theirs. Middle class is shrinking and dying. So when it’s gone, and all there is is rich elite and the 90% poor. Who will most women date?
Is this something they think about? Do women wish that stress and horribleness on their sons? What’s going happen when most men are replaced with ai machines?
Sorry but the upper middle classes lifestyle is sdoomed it’s a 1940s dream well past it’s shelf life.

There’s a lot more men like me then middle class men. A lot
So young people will never have relationships, marriages or kids. Some future.

Well, at least you have a plan for what you’re going to do for the rest of your life. There’s that, I guess.

I still believe it's legitimate for men to not want to put up with outdated stereotypes actually still the norm today. That's not hateful or disrespectful to the opposite sex. There is probably some form of confusion in these kinds of discussions.

It is legitimate for them to not want to put up with stereotypes, but they are not going to change while anyone here is still young. If a person wants to date, I don't think spending time on internet forums ranting about such stereotypes and how unfair they are is going to get them a date.

Sorry Sly. I had always been under the impression that you wanted a date and possibly a relationship, and that was your priority. I didn't realize your priority was advocating for social change. My apologies.

Society is changing with respect to gender stereotypes, in the direction you would like (thanks to first wave feminists) and that change has been happening over the course of a century and will continue to creep along unless some conservative, patriarchal uprising stops it. So in 60 years maybe things will be as both of us would like. In fact, perhaps it's a bit like that in India right now with the dowry system. She doesn't do the asking and there is no dating, but..a woman's family has to pay a man to marry her. An American man might be in high demand in some areas.

I want those things. But it looks like the best I can hope for is society will change so future non real men like me might have slightly better lives.

I don’t think conservatives are behind hindering it nearly as much as feminist are. Conservatives don’t care how much a man makes as long as he works. In fact their probably more for men working low paid jobs to maximize the Rich’s profits.

Those who can’t do teach. Or change in this case.
Certainly most feminist never got to fully benefit from their push for change.
I doubt anything will change but it’ll get worse, probably 1/3 of men today are unemployed or low paid. If not 2/3. Machines and cheap overseas labor will keep taking jobs away. Men go to and graduate college less then women which he gap is increasing.
The situation for men is bad and getting worse and the only group trying to change it is always attacked as hating women. Meaning men have no real organization to fight for their equality or issues.

So my life seems pointless, which depresses me so I doubt I’ll go to the gym tomorrow. I barely manage to go to work .

It’s venting and comforting. I get to talk to people who have similar issues and those who don’t but still see my crap life and talk to me. Not being here wouldn’t help either. I know the problem but it has no solution in my case. There aren’t enough women who don’t follow societies directions. Maybe if I wasn’t also born ugly as well as defective I’d atleast get dates and sex. But I wouldn’t take the sex. But god double wammyed me